Wow, I really don't feel like that's the case? They're not saying she's a wimp, they're saying that her need to be strong is holding her back. Being strong isn't the solution to every problem; Ikki shows that by going to Sakura not as a stern Kamen Rider, but as a loving and supportive brother. By allowing herself to feel all of her emotions, she's able to stop worrying that they're holding her back,.

I don't think it's a double-standard? Mom Igarashi only tells Ikki that it's his responsibility to protect people after he'd already become Kamen Rider Revi. Sakura's not a Kamen Rider, so it makes sense that her mother would want her to stay out of battles she's completely underequipped to fight.

Oh, I thought that was actually a really funny gag. The randomness of it was fine, but Daiji's confusion as to why this was happening right this second was hysterical. Hiromi very much wants to his soldiers to know his deal, because he loves them very much!

I... don't think that's right? The show heavily implies that the doctor is dragging his feet to get the mother to work for him, and the final scene has Ikki noting that Fenix is taking over the kid's care. I think he's going to be fine?

It's amazing to me that I started this phase of the project with Yurusen, an infuriating part of Ghost, and I'm ending it with Lovekov, the best thing Toei ever made. What a ride!

It's such a good gag!

Ok, opinion time.

This episode feels tailor made for me. I love seeing strong, female Riders in those shows, hell, I like writing them. The message focuses on accepting your mistakes and growing because of it, which is a message I adore and my writing often ends up being about and Sakura is a martial artist, which makes me relate more?

So, why did I hate it?

Low key, this was the episode Sakura and mama Igarashi started to become two of my least favorite characters in the show.

Let?s start with mama. I get what they are going for, but it just rubs me the wrong way. In general, a lot of ways she conducts herself read incredibly toxic to me and it feels she is at the heart of almost every emotion turmoil the family faces. So yeah, I do not like this woman.

As for Sakura?

She feels like early stage Ren from Saber, a character I quit like, but where Saber made it pretty clear Ren was immature and in need of growth, but with Sakura here, it feels the show is praising her worst aspects.

And it all comes down to how the moral and growth resolves. The show calls her overconfidence childish, so when she starts talking about how she now realizes that she was weak, it feels completely antithetical to that message when she adds right after: "But now that I realise my weakneses, I'm invincibile"

No, you are not invincible, you learned nothing at all!

You are back to square one with your problems and overconfidence with believing yourself strong!

This one line turns the meaning of the arc meaningless and undermines it entirely, because now she is praised for not growing in the slightest!

This character just grinds my gears to such an extent that not even Lovekov being super adorbs can fix it.

So, yeah, did NOT like this!

Incredible fight though! Cudos to the action team!

Geez am I the only One who likes Sakura? So much hatred.

Yeah, I definitely didn't have that read on it? I don't think the show is addressing her overconfidence, because she's not overconfident, she's too determined. (She actually is anxious and scared, which is a big point of this episode!) Her determination makes her unable to sit back and say Holy Shit I Almost Got My Brother Killed, and that's going to keep her from any sort of actual heroism. Power has to be balanced with humility -- an understanding that power has to be wielded with both purpose and reluctance -- or it's never going to get you what you want. By acknowledging her anxiety and fears, by recognizing the burden of what she's doing, she's reached a level of power that eluded her before.

I like Sakura quite a bit! I hope I've made that clear!

I get that, but it still reads as someone who?s core problem is the idea that she has to be invincible. That her acknowledging her weakness makes it go away.

Her approach hasn?t changed. She still sees herself as someone who should be invincible, missing the whole point.

Her strength and power aren?t wielded with purpose or aim, they are wielded to not be weak. And that hasn?t changed, at least to me. That is why I feel this episode?s moral utterly contradicts itself. If she really understood her problem, she wouldn?t have said that.

I guess we just have different reads on what Sakura's doing at the end of the episode? I think Sakura's arrival at the end of Episode 12 is diametrically opposed to her arrival at the end of Episode 11: now she's been humbled, and she isn't here to defeat some adversary or prove her worth. She's here because she wants to help, and she knows what it's like to feel powerless; just like the woman she looked up to who needs her power to rescue her from a villain.

I feel like the moral is clear and compelling? To me, at least?

Agree that that is likely what they were going for, but to me at least, the execution simply reads different and doesn’t really line up with the intent here.

Very much a case of subjective interpretations differing.

Glad you enjoyed it though.

Well here we are, at what a lot of people think is Sakura’s only good storyline. Though that’s more of an opinion than a fact, so I’ll let you make decisions later on.

Also, fun fact: The writer Hanta Kinoshita is primarily a novelist (Revice is his first crack at a tv show, so I’m slightly more forgiving of some aspects than others will be), with one of his series also featuring a character named Sakura Igarashi as the main hero. Just something to bear in mind.

Also Lovekov. She is a marketable plush with the voice of Miku Ito (previously the newsreader from the 01 movie who snowballed into a meme template, later the Scream Dopant in Futo PI and Spicah in the Japanese version of Ultraman Regulos). Moving on…

As for the Libera Driver, this would be the “least favourite belt” I mentioned back after episode 7. Mainly because of its interactions with the Vistamps being very generic (you could revise this Driver to function with any other gimmick without changing the basic design) and the female vocalist (I have no idea who it is) sounding way too harsh for my liking. It very much feels like something the show-runners thrown in at the last minute (especially since, so far, it’s got the only belt jingle with no rhyming or alliteration).

Sakura: It’s Saku and…

Lovekov: Love’s…

Both: Stamp Navi.

George: I can’t believe you both went for nicknames with that announcement. And who said you could do the segment?

Sakura: I’m a Rider now, I should have full access to your lab and permission to do the segments.

George: This isn’t my lab, it’s your karate dojo. You just put a desk in the middle of it. But I’ll concede your second point only so I can talk about this Vistamp.

Cobra!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=OMaAw0E6hjU

Abracadabra! Can’t see ya! Cobra!

George: Before I scrapped the Cobra Vistamp, I intended it to be a Genome that specialises in hand to hand combat. To maximise effectiveness, it would need to be combination of hard and soft weaving. In other words, it’s perfect for karate girls.

Sakura: Nice to see that someone knows my tastes. And now that I’ve accepted my current limits, I can go beyond them.

Liberal Up! Ahhh! Going My Way! Kamen Rider J-J-J-Jeanne!

Sakura: In the form of Kamen Rider Jeanne, I’m one step further to achieving my dream of being unbeatable. I don’t need my brothers anymore.

George: That’s nice, dear. (He turns to a man in a suit and sunglasses, sporting a fedora and whispers) 1000 on her not lasting until the last episode. (As the man leaves, he speaks up) Now then, let’s look at today’s actual Vistamp.

Kujaku!

Stage Hijacked! Heavenly Devil! Peacock! Impact, flash, blast!

George: I didn’t make this stamp, but it seems to utilise feathers for sharp cutting action and increased power. Perhaps you’d like to test it out.

Sakura: Alright, let’s see what new form me and Love-chan unlock with this.

(She inserts the stamp into the Libera Driver and presses the button on top)

Restyle! Weaponponpon (ponpon)! Weaponponpon (ponpon)!

Sakura: Buddy Up!

(She releases the stamp)

Rebuddy Up! Ahhhh! (Kujaku) Dadadadaan!

(Lovekov then changes into a pair of hand fans that fly into Sakura’s arms)

Sakura: Really? I don’t get any form changes. Ikki-nii gets animal based forms, Dai-chan gets Rider based forms and all I get are these hand-me-down props?

George: Don’t blame me, I scrapped the belt before I could decide on a form change aesthetic. Anyway, it’s time for today’s Legend Rider…

Showa 15 Rider Lockseed: ZX!

Ryo Murasame: Henshin!

George: Ryo Murasame, who was captured by the evil secret society "Badan", was remodelled into a cyborg soldier and became their servant. However, when he regained his will in the wake of an accident, he began to retaliate against Badan, who took his sister's life. In a lonely battle, ZX met 9 Kamen Riders who fought to protect people's freedom, overcame his revenge and headed for a decisive battle with the Great Leader and Kurayami Taishi. And with that, the 10th Kamen Rider, ZX was born!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=vYgIU6f3bQo

Sakura: Wait a sec, did you just say that he had a DEAD sister?

George: Yeah, I’m told Ishinomori drew from his own dead sister, who was the only one in his family who suppor-

Sakura: (exploding with rage) What kind of sick b@stard thought this was an appropriate Vistamp to give me as a weapon? I mean, who does that.

George: While I can’t speak for Sakura’s emotional state by then, I hope you enjoy the next instalment. (Sakura then punches him out)

Self-production notes: New key. Anything in bold is a belt sound, any dialogue in italics indicates a character is speaking English. Any lengthy sections in italics indicate a flashback/vision.

Few things to unpack in this one for me.

First of all, Lovekov is love(kov); Lovekov is life(kov?).

Second, I am absolutely in on the point of the story being Sakura realizing that acknowledging and embracing her weaknesses makes her a more complete person than trying to pretend that they don't exist.

Thirdly, Jeanne. Holy shit, Kamen Rider Jeanne. I fucking love everything about this character. The suit is an absolute masterpiece, especially by the standards of a show that has such a large gulf between its good (Jeanne, Demons, spoilers) and bad suits (almost everything Revi/Vice-related). Black and blue with orange accents? Perfect. Lithe and flexible for a snake-themed melee fighter? Perfect. That helmet? Absolute perfection. Is it my favorite Kamen Rider suit of all time? Probably not. Is it in my top ten? Absolutely. Top five? Quite possibly, but I'm not going to sit here and run the calculations.

On top of the suit, though, is the premiere fight. A running theme in my response to action scenes in more recent shows is that I miss the days when they actually felt like fights instead of scenes where suit actors wave around props and throw CGI at each other. Jeanne's first battle is probably the most intensive martial arts sequence we've seen on Kamen Rider in ages and it is glorious. It is so nice to see actual punches and kicks being used again after so long. This was my favorite action scene of the entire year (I doublechecked my annual thread to be certain).

You are not. Best character on the show who isn't a giant cobra plush.

Objectively wrong.

And finally, a quick throwback to a meme I made back when this episode first aired.

As Sakura's debut becoming Jeanne, yeah, time for the other characters to bring up about Sakura's edgy behavior, with Yukimi stating that she does like to act tough (and confirmed more by her noting that she's obviously anxious, but covers it up by acting mean and provocative to the family), and Ikki approaching her to tell her to drop her tough act (instead of holding her back again). As she's a teen, I guess the show doesn't pull its punches on showcasing teenage puberty in a rather negative light, culminating in her lashing out in bratty-like manner at the beginning (albeit Daiji was also too strict and harsh). The resolution would be, of course, for her to accept reality that she's not unbeatable. A situation where someone is powerful but helpless, showing that one can't solve every problem just by being what they're an expert at, but there's lessons like how one can gain somehow by losing, or there's great value in expanding one's expertise.

By accepting her human weakness she'd open to more improvements, like accepting the power of Kamen Rider in addition to her karate skills so she can properly fight, and gimmick-wise, getting in touch with her demon Lovekov (her name being Japanese syllables of "cobra" - コブラ rearranged backwards), literally showing her weakness to others with Sakura not having any problem for that, just asking others to take care of the literal punching bag.

Jeanne of course had to be made the hand-to-hand combatant to make full use of her karate skills, where in comparison previously Gaim had Yoko, a spy combatant, becoming a Rider that mainly relies on bow instead. I do admit that while I expected that, her fighting here does surprass my expectations to make a great debut like what others said, with neat variations of punches and kicks that she gave to the Giff Juniors like juggling one of them to the horde of enemies. Albeit it's not perfect that karate uses strong stances and hard, direct hits. Jeanne turned the battle against bigger horde of Giff Juniors in heroes' favor as a karate master. In the Revice previews, they mentioned Sakura having greater potential than her 2 older brothers.

There's more about Hiromi shown in this episode, that it's revealed that his backstory had him being bullied and hoping for a hero to save him, but there were none, so he became his own hero. Reminds that you better not wait around hoping for something you want but work on it (of course, being successful or not is another matter..). The reveal is very abrupt though in my opinion, Hiromi suddenly talking about his backstory out of nowhere, and like, it's in the middle of fight before henshin, that can left them open to the Giff Junior's attacks. Otherwise, I guess Hiromi resembles Spider-Man as human too, not only as Rider. I guess I didn't see it coming for George's reaction to Jeanne, from his potential excitement of stating that Sakura had a demon inside her, but he's instead enraged here, shouting his way off to Daiji too, and he states that Libera Driver is something he scrapped.

Amahiko lives up to his title as the "savior of Deadmans" where he rises their level by mass producing phase 2 Deadmans, but as usual, he didn't learn about how obsessed Aguilera is with Giff, thus making a joke about becoming Giff himself is a bad idea. That'd mean Amahiko's proper goal is still unknown despite being questioned here. Like usual, she'd ignore words coming from anyone beneath her, continuing from how she's bossy and hates being ordered. Aguilera making a decent point here that happiness can come in many forms, but that probably can be another temptation for Sakura that it's a relief she takes her brother's words instead. And a hint of her backstory as well that she was raised by Deadmans since toddler and apparently "thankful". She's also instead excited at Sakura's performance as Jeanne despite her wiping out one of the larger Deadman squad. Again, this gives me Parado vibe regarding how he interacts with Emu and is interested at seeing him come at the top.

I guess Ikki still had some ways to go on putting faith on others, where as shown here, against his parents he tried to claim that Sakura is fine, but actually the parents would also know her better that she's even more despondent as usual that she didn't ask for Yukimi's guidance like she usually does. And now the english name of Igarashi's onsen Happy Spa is also fully canon with Ikki wearing a shirt with that name written. There's a lesson for Daiji as well that him being professional can make him too uptight or even patronizing, against Sakura here, and that he may need to loosen up and acknowledge that something outside of legal can work well, or even better, sometimes law can be on the way to accomplish good instead. Again for Daiji to Sakura, like Daiji and Ikki before, both parties have their share of blame instead of only one having full blame. Other than the rehabilitation Seiko gets, she had to learn here that there are various help you can go for, with she almost giving up on Ryou, like how here, Fenix would be the one to try taking care of Ryou.

I guess there can be various ways on how teenagers operate, what's realistic or natural shouldn't be conformed into certain things only. I get your interest in her regarding how she incorporates convincing teenage traits (as I wrote above), though this does kinda sound like how you appreciated bratty kid character before. But a behavior being natural and normal doesn't mean that it can't warrantee a criticism from others (but I'd disagree with outright bleak view on whole kids or teenagers due to these stereotypes). Wonder what'd be something actually counts as wrong coming from kid/teenager though.

Actually I agree too that Yukimi's behavior doesn't sit well with me here, about her being overprotective to her though she is quite underage. While Yukimi is often a voice of reason with impeccable wisdom, I wouldn't want if anything she does is automatically considered right (+also because she's older figure). And Ikki's behavior is addressed annoyingly by others as a busybody. Though I do get softened on this stance due to later events.

Sakura being compared with Ren isn't something that I see often... I usually saw Ren being compared with Micchy from Gaim (Ren a.k.a Micchy) if comparison happens. Though Ren has actually performed morally questionable actions from his belief, while Sakura was limited to supporting bad actions. Otherwise, I thought that there are times where characters' problems aren't immediately solved in that one episode, and this is still the beginning of Revice. Though ofc how this is handled before can change things.

I can't say I've seen or heard enough of it to form an opinion, but I at least like the way the Vistamp rotates? I like a belt mechanism with some movement to it, and this one is pleasingly chunky in its activation.

Ha ha, I loved everything about Episode 12 -- Sakura's story, Lovekov's introduction, Ikki's role, Daiji's role, Aguilera's crush -- except for the Jeanne suit. I don't dig how baggy the boots are, but I hate how the orange at the bicep looks shrugged off of the shoulders. If those orange elements came up to form pauldrons, I'd probably like the suit 50% more. It looks like she's slouching, and it really bothers me. That said, the mask is pretty great.

"Appreciated" is maybe overstating it? I like when a character has a point of view, and I like when that point of view forces other characters to respond to it. Sakura's character is very distinct from Ikki or Daiji, and yet everything she is as a person is due in part to her proximity to those characters. The way they can know and love each other, but still aggravate one another, is one of the best tools this series has to make itself unique.

KAMEN RIDER REVICE EPISODE 13 - “FENIX ESCAPING CRISIS BY A HAIR’S BREADTH!”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/.../revice13a.png

I just… I basically don’t care about suits? As stories?

I got progressively less interested in this episode as strayed from what looked to be an absolutely killer premise – Sakura and Daiji have to team-up while Hiromi and Ikki are benched – into something that was pleasant, but less original – Ikki needs to have the courage to believe that people can change – and then finally into a glorified showcase for Revi’s upgrade form.

I care about suits to the degree that they illuminate some evolution of the character, but that’s where it stops with me. Ikki still seeing Vice as the monster that tried to eat his mom, instead of the supportive and steadfast friend he’d become over the last few months? That’s awesome. I love that. There’s something innate in Ikki that worries about his family as the first choice in any interaction, and it can keep him from being as supportive as he wants to be. (We even get to see Ikki learn to stop rushing to his siblings’ aid at the drop of a hat, and let them fight their own battles!) He cares about his family so much that he’s been holding it against Vice, even when Vice clearly doesn’t deserve it anymore. We’re miles away from Ikki almost suiciding himself against Giff Juniors to teach Vice a lesson, and it’s starting to get rough watching Ikki treat Vice like shit. It was time to have Ikki realize that Vice isn’t a demon that’s haunting him, he’s his buddy. We’ve finally reached the point where Vice can stop being some humiliated apparition, and start being a part of the family.

But then we get an extended sequence of Barid Rex, complete with Jumbo Brachio Remix, and I don’t think it’s as cool as the show does, pun very much intended. It’s an okay suit, even if it’s inherently less fun because Vice is being punished by George. I like the shattered egg motif, and how it symbolizes Ikki coming out of his shell and befriending Vice. The pink gradation over the turquoise is pretty. But I don’t need so much of a one-off episode to be devoted to glory shots of it in action. The finale of the episode for me was the pre-Henshin slow-walk of friendship by Ikki and Vice; everything after that was epilogue.

And while I didn’t get a full episode of Daiji and Sakura teaming up, I liked what little I did get. I really wanted to see what their dynamic was away from Ikki, you know? We haven’t really seen the two of them on their own yet, and I don’t really know what that relationship is like. There’s some fun notes so far, though. I like how they commiserate over Ikki’s helicopter brothering, and how hard they have to work to get him to back off. There’s a little bit of Daiji trying to be a voice of authority, and a clear indication that Sakura has never and may never see him as anyone to listen to. But, y’know, the episode very quickly pivoted to Barid Rex and Kagerou, and we didn’t really get the Daiji/Sakura spotlight I’d’ve liked.

Not to say the Kagerou stuff was unwelcome! The episode included a lot of intriguing story teases around the edges on this one: Kagerou’s reactivation, however briefly; Hiromi’s reasonable and relatable vow to lay down his life to protect Lovekov; a(nother) traitor in Fenix; the impending activation of Giff, maybe, possibly, who really knows. None of the villain plotting got me thinking in new ways about their schemes or characterization, but I liked them going on the offensive. A “base under siege” story is always entertaining, and the brevity of this one kept the pace fast all the way through. It’s a quick story, but a solid one.

I did manage to thoroughly enjoy this one, even if the last several minutes were not at all the high point for me. I like the developing dynamic of the Igarashis fighting as Kamen Riders, and I’m thrilled that we’ll be getting more Vice interaction with non-Rider characters. I can’t wait ‘til Vice meets the parents again!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/.../revice13b.png

Shame you didn't like this one that much because of Barid Rex. I really enjoy Barid Rex, it's so cool... okay I'll see myself out. There's something... nice about the coloration of Barid Rex, and the way the shoulder and chest armor is shaped. It's really nice.

Admittedly i could care less about it's actual gimmick of it summoning Remixes. What I do enjoy is it being an ice based power-up, that's really cool (again)!

Anyway, we've got a new Deadman lurking around and there's at least one fun thing I'll point out (that I personally didn't expect) with him once we get to it.

Highlight of the episode was Hiromi defending Lovekov though, and nonchalantly just saying Lovekov is cute at the very beginning.

As always, Hiromi is the only one who understands what's truly important: protecting Lovekov, even if it cost him his life. Who among us would do less?

I'm going to break a years long hiatus from Posting to express some pushback at this claim! The Libera Driver's design is wholly based on reflecting the stamp pad so that it mirrors the stamp's relief once it's inserted. It's a very simple gimmick, but it is very much tailor made for the Vistamp design in specific. There definitely are some belts in this season that legitimately don't do anything with the stamps, and could easily have the gimmick replaced (the TwoSiDriver is a standout in this category) but I don't think the Libera Driver is one of those.

uhhhhh, with that out of my system,
I don't think I've posted in these threads since like the Build one? Which I think was like the first one? But I've been keeping up with them, especially over the last year+. Always fun to read the insights and discussions here.
I'll probably return to my posting slumber now though. Despite rewatching Revice not actually that long ago, I don't think I have anything too insightful or constructive to say about it. "Lovekov is good" is about all I got for this part of the series.

Welcome back, however briefly! Build was the second full one of these threads, but since that and Ghost (and the Ex-Aid movies) were basically done in the time it takes me to get to the Winter Crossover Movie on the recent threads, I'm gonna still say that you are functionally correct, if not technically correct.

As for Revice, "Lovekov is good" is the main takeaway, yes.

So, I’ll just say I totally called Wakabayashi being evil entirely be accident. But I have to laugh at how inept his attempt to keep Hiromi out of it is. He uses the very legitimate excuse of “I’m concerned for your health” and then he takes the Demons Driver away and… puts on a bench where Hiromi can retrieve it. He doesn’t destroy it, or hide it, or give it to the Deadmans. What was his plan here?

Also this episode establishes that Hiromi hails from the Miyagi Prefecture, which is coincidentally where Ishinomori hails from. This was entirely unplanned: the guy playing Hiromi also happens to come from Miyagi.

I also like the idea that George is annoyed enough at Vice mocking his design to deliberately not give him an aesthetic changes with the new upgrade. Especially since it leads to a gag where Vice has to glue a shield together form the debris.

Ikki: It’s Ikki’s…

Vice: And Vice’s…

Both: Stamp Navi!

Ikki: It feels like it’s been a while since we’ve done one of these, right Vice?

Vice: Yeah, I mean, who said that fat snake b*tch could have a segment?

George: Believe me, I had those two scheduled for the tail end of the season. I’m even telling your mummy to convince her to retire. She seemed pretty eager to do so.

Ikki: That’s our Mom alright. Anyway, speaking of strength, here’s today’s Vistamp.

Barid Rex!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1EQ9gdd9...ature=youtu.be

Baribari Up! My name is… Kamen Rider! Revi vi vi vi, Revi Revi! Revi vi vi vi, Revi!

George: Kamen Rider Revi Barid Rex showed a shocking rebirth by breaking the shell. It is a new Revice that can be developed thanks to the operation data with 10 special Vistamps. Super G～reat! Using 10 kinds of Genomes using explosive forces that produce life in this world. Now, Ikki Igarashi, please fully demonstrate the power that will be the next phase! And Vice, I can't get the glue, but you've been holding on for a while with just that homemade shield.

Vice: Believe me, I’d take that long necked look you devised over this. You are working on a Barid Rex Genome for me, right?

George: You’ll have it before Ikki gets his final form. Don’t worry.

(Enter Hiromi, panicking)

Hiromi: You’ll also prove that the Captain isn’t a Deadmans cultist, right?

George: I’m a mad scientist, not a genie.

Ikki: And on that note, we hope you enjoy the next instalment.

There's alot of nice character stuff going on in this episode. Ikki finally trusting Vice, Vice making his own shield to spite George, and the establishment that Kagero isn't gone, meaning that Daiji is still dealing with his issues in his own way.

One terms of plot, Chameleon being the commander was... was it even meant to be a twist, really? Given how obviously evil the guy actually was. And Killer Lawyer being busted out of prison is a very interesting hook to be sure.

Overall, I found the episode to be a fairly solid one, and a good way to get things focused again after my displeasure with the previous two-parter.

No Line Texts this time, as I don't think there were any this time? It's worth noting that from this point onward they aren't guaranteed to be in every episode.

It's nicely childish! And thanks for the fun skit!

Yeah, he's kind of been a colossal prick since the first episode, so Is Also A Deadman feels like a lateral move, rather than a twist. Maybe now I'll be able to remember his name! (I won't.)

His name is Mr Cameron Eleon, duh.

Look I haven't seen Revice beyond the Beyond Generations movie, I've got to hit my bad joke quota somehow.

For once, Genta's the one to be sort of useful here, being the one to solve over this overprotectiveness by pointing out that it takes more courage to trust than worry, leading for Ikki to act fully friendly to Vice for the first time. With the 'trust' being shown by Vice punching a Deadman behind Ikki where Ikki didn't notice. I'm still not fully onboard with trusting morally dubious beings to be released which Ikki does to Vice, though it's true that there are also positive moments Vice did to him which Ikki overlook like trying to protect him from Kagerou, but I'm fully onboard on the more innocent side, on how you should trust others to handle problems by themselves instead of holding them back. Better try and mitigate problems (if not successful) than not trying at all due to over-worry of being injured. And not trusting others to handle problems is quite an innocent version of putting others down, viewing them as weak or incapable...

Indeed Ikki hasn't let go fully of his overprotective behavior to his siblings, where they're Kamen Riders now, even if Ikki's in worse position that he can't use his Revice Driver and his siblings are the ones who can fight. And I think Ikki not fully learning his lesson is the reason why Kagerou manifests back in this episode, with Daiji still being babied by Ikki that he worries too much that Daiji can't be independent out there as Rider, thus his resentment to Ikki resurfaces as Ikki goes back to his old habit, where of course as usual Daiji is subdued by only pointing out that the siblings aren't weak anymore, but not for Kagerou. Really Ikki should stop as it has proven to have unfortunate consequences, or probably if he learns that Kagerou can come back. Though it can be Kagerou taking over when he's beaten up from battle or Olteca directly releasing it with his tentacles. Ikki's new upgrade Barid Rex Genome, focuses on ice, and it has a theme revolving it like Ice Age (the era where dinosaurs were dying).

Sakura seems to be more relaxed dealing with her family after dropping her edgy act, dismissing Ikki and Daiji's concerns in more funny and lighthearted way (though I guess pointing out Ikki can't henshin is a bit of a payback, albeit Ikki too storms into the Skybase as regular human), though dunno if (she did ask for overcompensation at the end of last episode) she also hadn't fully learned her lesson like Ikki. Turns out that Yukimi has something to learn too herself, which'd be why I softened up a bit against what she did in last episode, that it's not something seen as always right (though you may do) because she usually acts as a guidance over her sons before (or because she's the parent), that she's even more overprotective than Ikki is against Sakura, despite that she'd let her sons fight as Riders, and Sakura already being trained to fight. A trivia that 2 of her ViStamps Kujaku and Turtle had their Rider bases ZX and V3 dealing with dead sisters and avenging them.

Hiromi's the other one that has his Driver taken, for his physical health, and the episode does show that he will perform heroic deeds even without power, it's regardless required as Jeanne has inherent escort mission for Lovekov, if she's not used as weapon. Now Happy Spa's the one to lend a hand on Fenix by having Hiromi take a bath there. There's now a hook of Wakabayashi being actually a traitor and is Chameleon Deadman, but I guess it's just Chameleon's ability to shapeshift into others, and guessing from how Revice had some evil twist hook before, but actually not (Daiji's envy, but it's actually Kagerou, and Sakura at preview of ep. 12, but it's actually Seiko). George would still take pot shots at Vice for his criticism to Jackal design. Finally the mid-season upgrade Barid Rex Genome comes, which is George's big project at this moment. Vice did have his payback as the skateboard, but at this point, George's own pettiness and spite will just hinder Fenix/Kamen Rider's progress that Vice will be stuck on his weaker base form, hindering Revice's overall battle power still. This shows how cold traits can instead be detrimental, and storytelling-wise, it's probably an effective one to handicap a scientist's contribution. Though he's able to get over Sakura, only focusing on the sender.

What a fool I was to miss this! Thank you for the clarification.

Like... people are morally dubious sometimes. If we can't forgive people when they've made an honest attempt to change and grow -- if we can't see beyond someone's earliest mistakes -- then we're all kind of screwed?

KAMEN RIDER: BEYOND GENERATIONS

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/revice/beyondb.png

The true legacy of Kamen Rider that will carry on for the next 50 years: most crossover movies are pretty goddamn boring.

I thought this one was pretty much a bust, save a couple clever ideas late in the game. It’s a story that the Saber cast is around for, without them ever feeling crucial to the narrative. (Like, there’s nothing thematically linking them to the story of Ryunosuke and Hideo, beyond an If You Squint thing about Ryunosuke wanting to keep a promise to his son that they’d ride the bullet train; they don’t.) Similarly, while the main arc of Kamen Rider Century is about family, it’s more about Daddy Issues, which means you could plug in nearly any Heisei Rider (and half of the Reiwa ones) and still feel like this story was in their wheelhouse. And that’s the huge problem with the story of Kamen Rider Century: it doesn’t specifically need Ikki or Touma to make it work.

Even setting aside the irrelevance of our two main Riders to this movie… the story of Ryunosuke and Hideo sort of isn’t much? It’s barely enough to fill a normal two-parter, let alone a feature-length film, until you convolute the holy shit out of it so that just repeating it sounds like it’s two or three movies instead of one. Ryunosuke wanted to do mad science experiments on unsuspected victims, he abandoned his family to do them, one of his victims was like Hey I Don’t Like Being Modified Into A Shocker Monster, Ryunosuke was like Dang I Get It, tried to return to his family after god knows how long as a Shocker fascist, gets experimented on, gets SHOT INTO SPACE FOR SOME REASON, gets sucked into a wormhole (as one does), travels into the future, then travels into the present day to stop Diablo just as (but not before! Never before!) he enslaves humanity. It’s dumb enough to join the pantheon of Stupid Crossover Plots, and maybe even be its head deity. (Why in the world would Shocker shoot him and a bunch of other failed experiments into space??? Even for Shocker, which is where normal plots are modified into Stupid Crossover Plots, this is the stupidest plot point in the film by a mile.) It’s a messy film full of stupid developments, almost all of which need to be reexplained to try and absolve their glaring plotholes.

And it’s all in service of a story of two men that I actively disliked. If Shocker are meant to be the Nazis – and they are – then Ryunosuke is a Nazi scientist who was eventually like Whoops Mea Culpa. Meanwhile, his 50-something son Hideo (a late-in-life dad who mostly doesn’t have time for his own son) reasonably resents his dad for a) abandoning his family to go do horrific experiments on innocent people, b) showing up to hijack his son’s body for some light apocalypse-prevention, and c) never trying to get in contact when he was shot off into space I guess? It’s the last one that makes a lot of this drag out; the movie really puts a lot of its weight on YOU NEVER CAME HOME DAD, which is easily explained away, instead of the more appalling and unforgivable YOU WILLINGLY EXPERIMENT ON HUMANS MULTIPLE TIMES DAD. I’m assuming the movie skips out on that one because, you know, unforgivable, but it’s hilarious to watch this movie try and rehabilitate a full-on evil scientist just because he misses his kid you guys.

(I rolled my eyes so hard that I gave myself permanent Showa Eyes And Tears at the scene where Takeshi Hongo – played by the skinny Son Of Hongo – tells the guy who murdered dozens of innocents in pursuit of genetic dominance that he’s actually a hero because he created Kamen Rider, which… that was not this guy’s doing! That was not the goal of the project! Takeshi Hongo subverted evil to do good; the evil still happened! Shocker is not retroactively benevolent just because Takeshi Hongo used the power they gave him to destroy it! That’s an incredibly dumb thing for this movie to say! Out loud! Holy shit!)

But, hey, if we’re willing to put aside how little this was either a Revice or Saber story, and if we’re willing to ignore how bad and drawn out and ludicrous the Kamen Rider Century story was… it’s still not a great movie? The best fight scene is the one in the future, where Daiji, Vice, Sakura, Touma, Rintaro, and Yuri all inhabit different clone bodies to fend off the requisite Army Of Dark Rider Suits, and even that’s a little lackluster. It’s neat to see a lineup of Valkyrie, Blade (for Blades! Hilarious!), Accel, Black RX, Knight, and Ex-Aid Muteki, but almost none of them utilized the things that are fun about those forms. Ex-Aid Muteki’s whole thing is being an invulnerable, overpowered Final Form, but Yuri’s running down a hallway, having a tough time against mooks. It’s just suits; nothing more than suits.

This one… god, it was so boring. When Kamen Riders were on the screen, I couldn’t figure out why they were there. (Diablo’s plot has no moves on it! And Diablo has no point of view!) When Ryunosuke and Hideo were on the screen, I was wishing the pointless Riders were back. Probably one of the worst crossover movies I’ve ever seen. I don’t think I can handle fifty more years of these types of films!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/revice/beyonda.png

Wow

Dreamsword was right.

Kudos Dreamsword! You called both parts all the way!

The one thing that sort of hangs over the audience's head (or at least mine at the time the show was airing) when it comes to trusting Vice is that one scene from an earlier episode, where he notices Ikki vanishing from a picture and does a sinister laugh about it. It seemed like the show was trying to signal that he was more malicious and knowledgeable than he's letting on. The kind of thing that makes taking the latter bonding moments at face value difficult in the moment--am I seeing Ikki forming a genuine bond here, or getting strung along?
I don't remember the episode/show actually presenting that as a dilemma? But it very much became one in my brain. Demons give you trust issues fr

edit: damn a whole movie post happened while I was typing. I will say one thing I did enjoy about Beyond Generations is how casually the two series link up. "Yeah, like, you gave us some flyers for your bathhouse, so we came to check it out. Why not." The rest of it was definitely pretty uninspired crossover fare though. I only got around to watching this movie a couple months ago and apparently that was my main takeaway. Great theme song, at least.

I'm glad I could deliver DreamSword a win? I hope that was fun for you guys? You're welcome?

Huh! I'm not sure that really stuck with me when it came to determining whether Vice was trustworthy or not. It's such a weird detail -- the show's had it happen a few times by this point, but never in a way that hints (to my eyes) about who's responsible or what might be the endgame. Didn't really think about it!

Listen this is all I can really offer as commentary because I can't find a way to discuss this movie because your prior post is a literal brick wall for me in terms of discussions. All I can say is, I liked the movie.

The only other discussion I can offer is what did you think of the credits song, Promise?

I'm glad you enjoyed the movie! I thought the theme song was okay!

I guess to be specific, the equivalent of what I said is also about sparing villains to not resort into killing, of which actually it frequently happens without them regretting and making that honest attempt (though I guess Vice's honest attempt to change was him warning about Kagerou in ep. 8?), but just people having blind faith that they won't do bad (to "see the best on people").

I actually hate blind faith on people being used to show how someone is a beacon of moral justice. You can be kind while being wary of people. That'd be still be nice too if it's meant to prevent someone bad from cooking up things (but not going overboard as just offing anyone who you're wary of). For my example above, I mean that not resorting to killing doesn't mean that they should be put in a position where they can't harm anyone (which does involve wariness).

I think there's a difference between mistakes or from deliberately harming others (including in retaliation). I mean would you really think someone who accidentally drops bookshelves is the same with those who deliberately vandalizes? I think mistakes are the accidental and unintentional ones, not on purpose. I mean everyone has capacity to do good and bad, but I don't like if this is used to lump everyone as just the same (which often happens in "it's not black and white" talks, but the "only grey exists" is going too far on the opposite direction); character/people should be looked as a whole of their good deeds vs their bad deeds (and then factoring in WHY they did bad things). It's context that really weighs the scale in either direction.

Sure, but Vice was a devil that didn't even understand the concept of right and wrong when he attacked Ikki's mom. He wasn't a fully-formed human with a learned moral code and a grasp on ethics that decided to harm others; he was basically an animal, and one that had never been trained to interact safely with people. Now that Vice's learned from Ikki's example, I think it's fair to give him a chance?

I think the actual substance of the mystery (who and what and why) isn't important at this point, but more the general fact that whatever it is, Vice seems to get what's going on, but is keeping it a secret--and it's something Vice at his most immoral found humorous, so it's probably not a good secret. So while Ikki is putting more trust in him, we know he's being kept in the dark about stuff...it makes for a sort of shaky foundation for a "trusting" relationship.

Well, I’m glad that in the future George gets to finally live the dream of putting a disco in the Ichigou belt.

Also I have no idea why they went with Neo-Batta for the mvoie form. Wouldn’t original Batta or Kajiki (the Saber Vistamp) have been more thematically appropriate?

Also I love that Revice are randomly fighting the Planarian Deadman in the beginning. Especially since the dude giving out those Vistamps isn’t anywhere else in the movie.

Okay, scattershot thoughts over (you can find more in the TokuCast for this movie), time for a skit, which isn’t necessarily Vistamp related

George: Hey, hey, hey! Yo, everyone. It’s George Karizaki here. I’m recording this amidst the madness of the world in 2071. A world ruled by the demon Diablo. However, I’ve created this to stop him.

Cyclotron Driver!

https://youtube.com/watch?v=-JVjQkIRq3A

George: This Driver was created as a modern version of Kamen Rider Ichigou’s, but with one key difference.

Ready!

George: This belt can send its user back through time to a point where their DNA exists in some form, be it a younger self or an ancestor. And in the unlikely event of time travellers, their descendants.

Done!

George: They can then use it to take over that body and become a warrior who can fight Diablo on even ground.

Century!

George: Kamen Rider Century. It’s taken me 50 years, but it turns out I’d been wasting my time trying to make a stronger Vistamp and send it back in time for Revice, Live, or Jeanne to fight with. I had to go back to basics, and create a warrior with the same skills as Ichigou.

Rider Punch!

Rider Kick!

George: And then, there’s the ultimate power that can defeat Diablo.

Cyclotron Finish!

George: If anything happens to me before I can find a suitable user, whoever finds this is to make use of this invention to prevent all of this from happening. (The sound of something hurtling through the air in the distance is heard) What? (He goes to a telescope, sighting a Shocker emblem on the object). Godda- (video cuts out)

Yeah, not a fan of this one either; the movie, that is; the episode I literally have nothing to say beyond, probably a bit early for the "I trust you Vice!" moment, but yeah. Rest was forgettable.

The movie, though?

Had a lot of the same problems as you. Century really rubbed me the wrong way, given the "deadbeat dad ran out on us and broke his promises" angle the movie is going for; he really learns jack shit.

He still makes promises he seemingly knows he can't keep and manipulates his son into reconciling before disappearing again. It really rubs me the wrong way how this all resolves and puts into question if he learned anything at all.

That said, I don't have a problem with the former Shocker scientist becoming a Rider.

Wouldn't be the first time since Riderman has pretty much the same backstory, and the only reason he started fighting the evil organization he was from, Destron, was because he wanted to take revenge on the guy who had betrayed him.

So, in general, no problem with the plot in general they just screwed it up.

So, yeah, sadly, by far my least favorite Generations movie.

Oh! Also, Diabolo is an idiot. Just, in general, but specifically given how often he lets people run away when they are like, 20 meters away from him when they are off screen. That movie really suffers from anything that isn't on screen is not existent. Probably some of the worst offender in that regard.

Yeah, honestly the movies are unappealing for me. Ofc it's just a trope and it by itself isn't bad, but crossovers are often just done as a fanservice (and for Toei, more toys) to get some franchises mixing up. I felt the need to watch it to not missing out on some spoilers happening to characters when reading up info (only done it when you did too so that I can leave comments), and ofc you have the need to cover everything about the current series you're watching.

Daddy issues... setting this in a movie? You just gotta keep watching Revice instead. Actually perhaps Ryunosuke regretting what he did and trying to atone is a display of how Kamen Riders' actions can be inspiring to move bad guys. Actually I'd say that at least Ryunosuke's attempt to atone is genuine, but he does feel like treated as a normal person trying to reunite with family, instead of someone who did serious crimes (though people like Ikki and co being patient and tolerant would be expected). And it's not sympathetic enough to have someone turn bad only to satisfy their dreams, which is completely their own choices, as if they did that solely because they can (doing it under harsh circumstances also won't mean they aren't bad, but still). He also obviously isn't the type who is only merely associated with a bad faction (which actually can have them being actual good guys, not only sympathetic bad guy), but actually performed their job for long time.

Other than the complaint, I'd say that Ryunosuke needing to hijack someone to fight as a Kamen Rider feels like other toku; Ultraman, with human hosts, and the consequences of them going berserk feels like when an Ultraman human host dislikes Ultramen and disrupt their fight (not exactly the same as Century here, but it does have consequenes too). Regarding YOU NEVER CAME HOME DAD, this being a Saber movie, ofc it'd take promises seriously, instead of explaining it away, but unlike Saber... Ryunosuke didn't actually fulfill his promise, thus his redemption against Hideo isn't earned or even feels deceiving, unlike how in all Saber extras, Touma (and Kento as for end) would make sure anyone fulfills their promise, and they did. I actually'd hope the scene of them saving the Riders via a bullet trait would be how they fulfilled their promise while also getting into the Rider scene, but the story still didn't refer to that as fulfilling the promise.

Agreed on this. This is perhaps done (and perhaps Hongo's patient and forgiving nature) to make Ryunosuke feel better because he technically has atoned for what he did by creating those who fight off shocker. But judging how good or bad someone/actions is by the outcomes of their actions is just promoting those shitty stuff, letting it go unpunished. And actually many people (not talking about here) also has similar view, to glorify villains when their actions have benefit. Sometimes good things can come out of a bad situation or a bad thing. However, people should not misconstrue that just because something good was born out of something bad/evil, does not make that something good, just because the end result was good does not mean that the bad guys did something good.

This one too, with the Riders provided to the cast consisting of random power level of it, I wondered how capable are those Rider forms, which like you said, it's just a disservice to have Hyper Muteki getting hard time against fodders. I hope it's about the clone being nowhere near as good as the original, because it's just humiliation otherwise. And as I've completed Revice but watched this movie now, so actually the Revice intro part of George being shown with Riders being used as a lab experiment, which makes him suspicious at this stage (though in this movie he seems just helpful), it was done on this movie only, of his clone Riders. Hiromi in this movie feels more hostile and standoffish, even though I know he's professional. By contrast, Rintaro is established as a professional but still stands up for George dismissing Hiromi for his failure, of which only considering results over efforts do often happen in "professional" setting....

For me, Vice does so much fourth wall-breaking stuff that I never know if I'm supposed to take those reactions as I Have A Secret or just What Wacky Thing Is Going To Happen Next On "Kamen Rider Revice"? Vice is genre-savvy enough that I never quite take it as him being ahead of the game on the series arc.

Ha ha, yeah, they have about zero problems taking out a monster that they needed Live to finish off just a couple weeks prior, huh? And thanks for the fun skit!

Well, I didn't know the Riderman similarities, but I still found the emotional core of the film to be not exactly to my liking. It's two dudes I didn't connect with, having an argument about a thing I didn't enjoy.

But, really, that wouldn't even have been as much of a problem if it felt like there was a reason this story needed the casts of both Saber and Revice to tell it.

This one wasn't for me!

This one, thankfully, didn't seem to have a lot that impacted either show? We get yet another tease of Rintaro confessing his feelings to Mei (who, as always, is miles ahead of him) and that's all I could see as far as series-relevant details? It's fairly contained, as far as storytelling is concerned.

Oh, no, I agree with you there.

Those two have a likeability problem, the dad more than the son, but yeah.

And it really doesn't feel like a story that needs either Rider.

Like, Generation Forever is also about a side character, but it thematically and narratively is a story that only really works because it's a ZI-O story, and they find good ways to incorporate Build thematically as well.

Here, removing the fact that Diabolo supposedly is Giff's family, a concept ripe for exploration in a show about family, is super easy. The only thing that raises questions is the stamp association but that is easily changed.

He's generic in the worst way.

It's appropriate that the ending theme is called Promise, as I am about to fulfill the promise I made in the Saber thread to talk about this movie!

Agreed. However, I'm not going to complain about seeing those lovable characters again. Sure, most of it is just meaningless fanservice (especially for Rintarou fans ;)), but I thought it was nice to see how their lives are going and that Sophia and Reika seem to be cool with each other now as they sat at the same table in Shiawase-Yu without rancor.

But if there was a common connection between Revice and Saber, it would be Family, right? Revice made a big deal about that being its central theme, but before that, it was the center of Rintarou's arc and motivation for his loyalty to SOL, his familial attachment to his friends and having to learn to dissociate them from the organisation. Honestly, I'd even say that Saber is more focused on Family than Revice.

There is a weird plot hole with this crossover though, that Saber's epilogue takes place a year after the final battle against Storious, but for Revice, it's still 2021.... Touma should be in Wonder World! The Seiken Swords should be dormant! The timeline is messed up even before involving the time travel plot!

And how does Ikki even Henshin without Vice?!

Despite the many logical errors that litter this movie, I did enjoy it for the heartwarming story about the relationship between father and son spanning 100 years. How about that awesome Mount Fuji climax! Xross Saber's back! Since Zero One got screwed out a Movie War, Revice even get a giant-sized Zero One-themed form to give the illusion that he's there!

Future George and his Clone Riders also play an important part in the fanfic I wrote last year, which is kind of like an AU prequel set in 2065-2066.

Yeah, this might be where your reluctance to "truck with Showa" is to the detriment of your enjoyment of this movie. Or, even if you still disagreed with it, maybe you could've appreciated the consistency at least. The way Hongo's approval of Ryunosuke as a true Kamen Rider calls back to Kazami Shirou's approval of Yuki Joji. The way Hongo's gratitude for being remodified calls back to Tsukuba Hiroshi's gratitude towards the scientist who performed his surgery. It's all pretty faithful to Ishinomori's vision, whether that's your thing or not.

I recall about DreamSword disliking the movie, but I forget what predictions he called. Can somebody remind me please?

I know he hadn't watched SkyRider at the time, so I'm curious to know if his opinion has changed since then.

George: "Hmm, I wonder which party member I should give Hyper Muteki to."

Sakura: "Muteki."

George: "Meh, guess I'll just give it to Yuri-sempai then."

Yuri: "How prodigious!"

Why is EX-Aid the only Rider to get two places in the roster anyway?

He's very weird! I was honestly pretty intrigued by Devil City in the opening... but, nope, vague World Domination plot, no sense of what world this guy is actually looking to build in the aftermath.

Yeah, I ain't immune to that stuff. Watching Rintaro be very non-suspicious in his confusing and accidentally-pervy visit to Happy Spa? I'm into that! I'm very into seeing whatever parts of Saber I'm allowed.

I don't 100% remember the Seiken Swords deal from the finale, but they do address Touma's absence: Rintaro is dispatched by Sophia to go give him Rekka and get him to help out.

Which is impressive for Sophia to think of that, considering that Touma was presumed dead at this point in the show. :p