The way Nexus did it is way different. Imagine if Takumi retired 20 episodes in and some completely new character became Faiz for the rest of the show.

Personally I'd be all for that, I watched Nexus recently and it really is cool how it becomes a completely different show, yet still the same.

No, I know. I've seen Nexus. Actually, a better answer would have been the original series. That's pretty much exactly what happened with Hongo and Ichimonji.

That's a pretty good point, actually. Obviously the circumstances were a bit more meta and not thematic but yeah, that is kind of similar.

Sigh... yeah, you're right (hangs head, kicks dirt, then looks out at the lake). It's just kind of stupid, y'know? These shows aren't that much different than the DC stuff on CW, at least budget wise - and people watch the shit out of that. But, yeah, those awesome toku quirks... you either get it, or you don't.

How about your "wandering hero" idea (ala Incredible Hulk) but like this:

A mysterious old man with briefcase wanders from town to town, when he finds people in peril, he gives them use of what lay within the case - a driver - but the driver "henshins" into the titular Kamen Rider every time, with his own personality, but guided by the user wearing it, including certain quirks and skills and power ups of their own that end up as surprises even to the Rider. When the PotW / MotW has been dealt with, the old man wanders on to the next adventure.

Of course, he's being hunted by the ancient organization that made the belt, wanting to use it to destroy the world (or whatever). Maybe he was the Rider as a young man and did some horrible things but, an event happened that broke him and he stole the driver, ran and has been running ever since. He once used the belt regularly, but using it now would kill him due to his age, so he "gifts" it to those in need. Maybe he has a grandson or an orphan girl who accompanies him, who he's training to take his place - but they're too young to use the belt, with great harm being the risk. Of course, the series would build this character until they were capable of taking the belt at the end, which could then start an entirely new, different series.

Man, this stuff is easy...

Could we ever get a Ryuki 15th anniversary special? I know it would be hard to do, but I think they could do another AU type of film. Takamasa Suga still voices Ryuki in the video games. So maybe he can return.

As much as I love Ryuki, I don't really think the plot has anywhere left to go or anything left to say. I guess you could do the whole AU thing but like what would it even be about?

One of my initial hang-ups before I learned to love toku was how a lot of the props on the show looked like toys, from the robots to the equipment. The literal turning point was when I looked at this from the other direction: "Wow, these toys are pretty show-accurate!"

Yeah, but don't we as enthusiast watchers feel the same way about mainstream media? The CGI designs are shit, the effects are way too over the top, the focus on spectacle/CG take away from characters and the story.

That also makes me ask, is toku just seen as it's bad by everyone outside the fandom? Like, I feel like a lot of the best TV show stories I've seen are from Rider, but is the budget/toy focus too distracting for people to focus on the good?

I've seen plenty of Rider series but I've never felt really lost on what's going on due to the culture differences. For example: My favorite Rider show Blade is about pretty common themes throughout media. Betrayal, loss, hard choices, coming of age, and sacrifice being some examples I can think off the top of my head. Is there just some sort of different tone to it that being Japanese inherently does that I can't distinguish because I'm used to anime and this kind of stuff?

The closest I can of being lost on cultural stuff think of is Kabuto with all the Japanese food and stuff or some of the crazy OOO nobunaga stuff.

I agree. It'll be niche, but it certainly has a much higher ceiling of appeal it could reach though. I feel like Rider series could rival some popular animes in the states (not the super huge ones like Attack on Titan) if Toei tried hard enough.

Maybe Amazons will open people up a bit.

Well I guess they can have Takamasa Suga return in a 2017 Spring crossover film. There is the 15th anniversary of Agito ending next year. Toshiki Kashu also return to voice Agito in the video games. So it's possible that he could return as Agito for a 15th anniversary or in a crossover movie.

Oh right, I forgot to respond to that. What the heck does that even mean?! That's a really unsatisfactory, vaguely insulting reason to give as to why people don't watch Toku.

Just because it's foreign doesn't mean it's alien. These are shows for little kids. I refuse to believe they're so deeply steeped in Japanese culture that they must be "deciphered".

It's just obscure, you know? There doesn't have to be some deep reason behind that. Not to mention Sci-Fi/Fantasy stuff in general has historically had problems with being considered "inane" or "geeky", namely by snooty academic types but still, it can be a mainstream sentiment sometimes.

I can't really think of anything that could advance Shinji's character, even outside of the context of the main conflict of the show, like what happened with the Faiz bit in Kamen Rider Taisen.

I agree, it's really stupid. I'd go as far as to say that Kamen Rider, Ultraman, and Super Sentai are often significantly better than any DC/CW show, especially from an action and innovative storytelling perspective.

What I don't agree with is the comparable budget between the DC/CW and toku shows. The DC shows cost $1-2 million per episode, whereas the budget of your average toku episode would be insanely lucky to max out at $500k. And I do think the low budget is the most alienating factor for Western/US audiences. (Although, the commercial failure of Pacific Rim in the US makes me think that there's not a huge audience for Toei-style Henshin Hero stuff, even if the budget is substantial. We'll have to see how the new Power Rangers movie does at the box office before we're able to draw a firm conclusion.)

I don't feel that way about mainstream media at all. I just have a different set of expectations for mainstream stuff than I do from niche stuff.

Look at the public's perception of old Godzilla movies. Look at people's perception of Power Rangers. I wouldn't exactly say they're 100% positive. Many mainstreamers, if they watch this stuff at all, do so ironically -- like, MST3K style. They watch to make fun of the men in suits, or to laugh at the bad dubs, or to giggle at the swarms of histrionic Japanese people feeling from giant monsters. And hey, that's a fair way to derive enjoyment from these things. But it's not a mindset that screams, "I think of this as a legitimate, high-quality artistic accomplishment."

I think the low budget and toy-focus establishes certain expectations in the minds of mainstream viewers -- namely, that the show will be cheap, juvenile, and not worthy of sincere appreciation. If that's a viewer's first impression, it's gonna be hard to change.

Well, if you're posting on here, you're obviously more open to Japanese culture than a lot of Westerners. I don't think our attitude toward these cultural differences is indicative of mainstream America's. I think we're probably more open-minded, more willing to challenge ourselves, than the average mainstream viewer.

When I hear mainstream American audiences talk about anime and Japanese culture, it's usually with a hint of racist disdain. They say shit like, "oh, Japanese people are so fucking weird, look at their tentacle rape porn and fixation on cartoon pedophilia," as if that's all Japanese media has to offer. That's a gross mindset, but it's hard for me to look at all the racial grossness happening in America today and not find it reflected in the mainstream's attitude toward Japanese cultural exports.

Tone is also, I think, a very real concern. There's a lot of unusual tonal juxtaposition in Japanese media that doesn't really happen in American media. In Kamen Rider specifically, we're used to seeing OTT slapstick comedy in one scene, brutal violence in the next, and heartfelt melodrama in the scene after that. That tonal mishmash happens in some American media, but not to the extremes it does in its Japanese counterparts. That whiplash could probably be alienating to mainstream American viewers who are more accustomed to a consistent tone.

I totally agree, and with Shout's Super Sentai and Cruchyroll's Ultraman releases, we're seeing the niche audience expand every day. I can only imagine that expansion will continue with Amazons.

And you know what? I'd love to see Kamen Rider, Sentai, Ultraman, Garo, et al break out into the mainstream. I just don't think it's realistic to expect it to.

How is that insulting? Do you think I'm underestimating the American mainstream's appreciation of foreign language material? If so, please point out all of the foreign language films on 2016's list of top 100 highest grossing movies in the US. Here, let me do the work for you. There's one, No Manches Frida, and it clocks in at #93 on the list.

Just because you and I are interested in other cultures' entertainment doesn't mean that the majority of people are. If they were, we'd see a lot more foreign language films do well at the box office. We'd see all sorts of foreign language TV shows on broadcast TV. But... we don't. And that's okay! I have assigned no value charge to that fact.

Look, I'm not saying that mainstream Americans aren't capable of understanding this stuff. I'm saying that they're not interested in challenging themselves to do so. The material may not be alien, but it's certainly alienating. And I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing -- I'm just making an observation.

But... why is it obscure? Just 'cause? That's a really lazy logic. There's a reason for everything, and I hardly think that saying "Americans are historically disinterested in challenging themselves to experience other cultures" is a particularly profound or earth-shattering proposition.

Also... if you think that's the only reason I put forth, you didn't really read my whole argument which credits its niche status primarily to the shows' low budget.

Sorry if it sounded like I was attacking you or something but that particular bit rubbed me the wrong way. I read all the other parts and believe it or not I DO more-or-less agree with you.

But I hate the notion that these goofy shows we're so into are something you "challenge" yourself to understand. I get your message here but the wording comes off extraordinarily pretentious to me.

And I didn't mean "just 'cause" with what I said either. I was actually getting at what you're saying that there's an established, broad disinterest in foreign stuff. By "no deep reason" I meant "a lot of reasons". Sorry if that didn't come across clearly enough.

Whoa, an apology on the internet!? I... I've never heard of such a thing. :lol ;)

Sorry that I rubbed you the wrong way. Hopefully my clarification that I don't think any of this is good or bad eases the sting. :thumb:

I hear you. But pretentious or not, foreignness is a huge barrier of entry for a stunningly large percent of Americans. The number of times I've heard, "I don't want movies with subtitles," is astonishingly large, even among educated people. And then on top of that, there are a ton of cultural nuances that need to be understood to fully appreciate even these goofy ass kids shows (there are honorifics, gender dynamics, foods, social hierarchies, and a ton of other things that do need to be explained to people unfamiliar with anime and other Japanese media).

And getting over (or coming to appreciate) the goofiness itself is a huge challenge. I'm half Japanese, I have a ton of familiarity with anime and other Japanese cultural exports, and I was a massive massive massive Godzilla and Power Rangers fan as a kid -- and even so, getting used to tokusatsu's bizarre tone took some effort for me (not a huge amount, but it wasn't completely effortless). It's probably possible to enjoy these things without this knowledge, but it can be confusing, which is a very real deterrent. Even a whisper of confusion keeps Americans from engaging with this stuff, especially in a world where countless, high quality American shows -- shows that don't require any effort to understand -- are competing for the mainstream audience's attention.

Gotcha. And I agree. There are a lot of factors, only a few of which I've addressed.

I'm gonna try not to press the issue any more than this because it'll get outside of the scope of this forum quickly but I guess my opinion is just influenced by my perspective (go figure). I'm just some random American idiot who liked Power Rangers as a little kid and I never felt like I had to "get used" to the tone or anything like that. I saw some shows that looked interesting and I watched them, that's all.

Being able to enjoy it without a nuanced understanding of the culture it came from isn't a "probably" in my mind. People don't even have a nuanced understanding of their own culture a lot of the time but that doesn't stop them. It's just like, you don't need to know detailed writing concepts by name to say "I thought x was well written", for example. Any understanding of a story is a valid one.

I just get really sketched-out whenever I hear people talk about other countries like they've got so little in common because I feel that contributes to creating the very atmosphere you and I are bummed exist. If you want to get a pal to watch some pretentious French drama are you going to tell them "you just need to take a brief history course before you can watch it" or "dude it's just like any other movie, relax"?

Obviously there's differences but Powerman293 had a point talking about Blade. Being human is a pretty universal thing, isn't it? I'm getting way too philosophical for my own good now so I'll stop here but hopefully you get what I'm saying.

Yeah, the first impression stuff is important. Rider at least has an episode of dramatic build up in many series' first episodes to get an initial dramatic significance into the viewers' heads before the fights. Maybe Faiz would be the best for something like that given Kiba gets hit by a truck in Episode 1 and loses both his parents.


It sucks that most of mainstream America isn't culturally as open as we are. I find that really ironic considering there are so many different types of people living and working in the states, that you'd think a universal cohesion on one attitude would be impossible given the diversity. I don't know how you get people to be more open to other cultures though.

I was listening to a podcast, where someone who works for IGN (Jared Petty, if you guys want to look him up) lived in Japan and he was explaining the tonal disparity thing. He has the way Japan balances things out, is by having the opposite extremes of light heartedness and darkness. And example he provided was a sign with cute cartoony drawing of a character jumping in front of a train, advising people to not commit suicide. In America, the sign probably just say "Please do not get on the tracks". It's not light hearted, but it's not dark either. So I finally have an understanding for that view.


As long as it gets as mainstream as anime is and keeps growing from there, I think it will. Attitudes will change.


I have an idea of having some of the people living on my college dorm room floor watch the first few episodes of a rider show with me if I have the opprotunity to put something on. It'll be an interesting little experiment. Granted, it might be skewed given that I go to school in a more culturally diverse and accepting city than most.

Not to mention within all those high quality American shows, there's superheros that are draw in the average viewer easier based on previous exposure to their namesake. Flash, Batman, e.t.c.

Well, I can tell you that, among people who don't have to read to make a living - a dismaying number can't read very well - even among the so called "educated". My boss, a college graduate who runs a very successful business, can barely write a coherent sentence (finding documents he's written in our tablet can be a real challenge!). When I worked in advertising, one of the many hats I wore was "proofreader". I took my higher-ups official communications and rewrote them so they didn't read as though penned a seventh grader with no idea how punctuation works. These are not stupid people, obviously - they just never put a lot of stock into reading.

So, for a good number of people, reading is a "chore". Some can't read fast enough to follow the story, others are weirded out about it in the same manner that some are with understanding the mechanics of comics. It's just too much work when simply trying to be entertained - and you're trying to get them to watch a kid's show.

Yeaaahhhh.

Well, I have a co-worker who I'm trying to get to watch either Blade, Ryuki or Amazons. He likes action and 'splosions, sci-fi and comic cons and spent some time stationed in Okinawa in the 90's. He should go crazy for it, we see.

I don't think you, or anyone who posts on this site, is an "average American idiot." Our arguments are too well-reasoned, we can write above a 5th grade reading level, and we're open to learning about other cultures. That blend of intelligence and open-mindedness is unusual, in general, but it's fairly common in Western toku fandom. I think that combination of personality traits draws us to these shows, and it allows (most of) us to better appreciate non-culturally-traditional stories, moreso than the average, mainstream American audience member.

That said, I think there are three main points being argued here, and I don't think our opinions are all that different.

1) Foreignness as a barrier of entry.
2) Knowledge as requirement for enjoyment.
3) Cultural commonality.

Point one: we thought these shows looked cool, so we watched them. The foreignness didn't bother us. I think it is a mistake to assume that the majority of mainstream American viewers share this disposition. If they did, more excellent foreign language shows and movies would be mainstream. The foreignness, whether it's language-based or cultural, keeps most people from engaging with these shows in the first place.

Point two: I concede that you're right on this one, so long as one is able to overcome the initial barrier of foreignness. Though, I'd argue that enjoyment increases as cultural understanding increases.

Point three: Japanese culture is not so different from American culture that members of one can't understand the other. In fact, there's a huge degree of overlap. But I find that the more two cultures have in common, the more important the subtle differences between them become. Whether we like it or not, humans are "in-group"/"out-group" animals, and one group will find a way to differentiate themselves from another group, even if their differences are minuscule. It's a widely recognized phenomenon that two people with 99% similar viewpoints will argue just as fiercely over their 1% difference as two people with 100% differing viewpoints. I think that phenomenon applies to cultures just as well as it does to individuals. Regardless of our similarities, the average American will find cultural differences in Japanese media that alienate or turn them off. Should it be this way? Can it be changed? I don't know. Those are philosophical questions I don’t think anyone has the answer to. What I do know is we're lucky to possess character traits that enable us to see past our own culture's biases.

But yeah, anyway, that's just my very long way of saying Kamen Rider rules and anyone who doesn't agree is dumb. :lol ;) (jkjkjk)

To be honest as a long time anime viewer I can understand how people can find subtitles off-putting I've had incidents of the scroll being too quick where you don't have enough time to even read the dialogue,the font either being too small or a bad color where you can't see them or being too large and obscuring the image double bad points if the subs are an eyebleedingly garish color*looking at you TV Nihon* and the written subtitles being laughably bad broken English.

Plus the fear/annoyance that you'll miss a scene while reading the subtitles.

S***... you mean I could've just said that 30 posts ago? Now I just feel silly. :D

I don't know, I'm pretty cynical about the odds of this ever not being a niche interest myself but sometimes people surprise you. Infinite Potential™ and such (I'll make that a thing yet!).

I dunno. The show would be hard to continue given that Kanzaki reset the world to a state where the riders do not need to exist.

Point A: 100%!

Point B: true toku will always be niche. Now, that's not to say that some American show trying their hand at an "adult" take on a Power Rangers type show couldn't happen. We need to keep our eyes on how this movie doe$...

Yeah and that ending was so right. It could be another alternate scenario film but it would be pretty tough as the Battle was very much a timed situation; it would be highly unlikely to still be going on fifteen years later.

Maybe it would be that the Rider War never happened, and the Mirror World is now seeping into our world, and the people who were Riders in the war in the show/movies got the decks somehow to stop it.

Yeah... it's hard coming up with a scenario after Ryuki for them to be Riders.

I think some kind of actionless, character-drama epilogue could be written in the context of the TV show ending but being as focused on thematics as I am I really do struggle to think what the point of it would be.

The characters are walking around fifteen years later and... they talk? About what? To what end? If you just have the conflict start up again it sort of invalidates the whole point of the ending in the first place, so that's a no go. Even if you do some kind of AU thing it's the same problem. The characters are fighting and... they die? They live? Why? How? What makes it any different from the show you already watched?

I wouldn't mind seeing new Ryuki stuff but thinking about it, it might be the single hardest Kamen Rider show to do any sort of epilogue for.

Frankly I say wait another year and put that hypothetical budget towards the Faiz 15th anniversary special where Takumi and Mihara actually defeat the Orphenoch King and then Takumi can die or whatever.

I'm a lot cooler with Faiz's ending than most but it's hard to argue some more closure wouldn't be nice. If it's well written I'd love to see it.

(Cue joke about Faiz not being well written)

A proper Faiz ending would be nice although I'm sure they'll Handwave away that Takumi should have disintegrated away given the stuff implied at the end and the fact that Orphenochs seem to disintegrate after a certain period of time.

Honestly that's not the important part. They can do that either way and have it work but leaving the main villain of the show around yet not even doing so much as a "the adventure continues" kind of ending was the whole problem with Faiz's finale in the first place.

Or at least it was my problem with it? I always see people say the ending sucked but I never see them elaborate on that so for all I know they could just think it sucked by virtue of being Faiz.

The plot of Faiz is definitely an issue in general. The ending being probably the biggest one of them all. Honestly it is a series that almost demands a V-Cinema or a continuation of some sort, as while the final scene of Takumi stating his dream was nice, Lobster Orphnoch is still out there with the King. She could always easily start making new Orphnochs and continue trying to take over the world. I'd gladly pay out of pocket to see a continuation happen.

Spoilers?

But anyway, that's a feeling I don't really remember having with Faiz. Its endgame has some pretty weakly executed stuff but in general I think its story is fine. Of course I'm me...

It probably sucked. :p

Which Kamen Rider show that killed the dark tone of Heisei Kamen Rider?

If you watched Kuuga, Agito and Ryuki. Those 3 show were darker than recent Kamen Rider show but how come we don't get those dark tone anymore?

Because FAIZ KILLED IT! Faiz is the most boring show ever because I couldn't watch it! I even don't know if Blade was dark Kamen Rider show but I know Faiz was the reason of why Toei decides to make Recent Kamen Rider show a more kid show like Super Sentai!

Hibiki was a confusing mess because apparently I think Hibiki was original to be a dark Kamen Rider but NO! Toei decides to mess around because they wanted more toy! and they didn't want to waste their money on location! Even Hibiki's actor was complained about Toei changing the PLANNED SERIES FINALE of Hibiki! Apparently Toei didn't learn a lesson from Batman & Forever aka Toy Commercial film!

Sure, Gaim was a dark show but the ending was more happy one than most of Gen Urobuchi's project! It got over-the-top moment with Bravo!

I feel Onari was added to Ghost because Toei wants over-the-top comic relief because they need a freaking clown to make little childrens laugh! I don't even know if they add a Comic Relief to Ex-Aid! I think a pink-hair girl could be that comic relief! I hope they don't make her OVER-THE-TOP!

Toei always care about MONEY! They don't care about story-telling but lot of money!

...Kamen Rider has always been a kids show made to sell plastic toys also Kiva,W,Drive and Gaim all happened after Faiz so no it didn't kill "dark" Rider series.

You do realize that they don't make shows as if they were the free doughnuts from Krispy Kreme's right?
Most of them got mouths to feed probably and rent to pay.
And most importantly a studio to run to make said shows and air them on TV.

If you want something dark and gritty, may I recommend GARO (assuming you don’t already watch it)?

What’s wrong with having a happy ending?

Rider may be a tad darker than Sentai, but its primary target audience is still children so unlike, say, Madoka Magica, things can only go so far. There has to be restrictions.

Dude, have you seen Faiz? That show was dark and bleak as fuck. One of the main character's storyline begins with her being physically and emotionally abused to death by literally every person in her life and ends with her being tragically murdered after finally realizing that she's been hanging out with her secret pen pal/crush all series. It's also a show that regularly showed x-rays of people's hearts dissolving and had multiple people disintegrate into dust on-screen. I'm not sure what constitutes children's tv where you come from, but that sure ain't what I consider kiddy fare.

No, I think we canpeg the big tonal shift of the Heisei era squarely on Den-O. That's the show where comedy really became front and center. Obviously, some of the other shows had comedic moments and characters, but Den-O is the show where drama officially took a backseat to wacky hijinks.

I think the point was that Faiz was so s***ty they decided never to make another show like that.

And yeah, I've always felt Den-O was the secret first Neo-Heisei show, right down to a second Rider who goes the entire series without picking a fight with the protagonist.

Oh, absolutely. I think things started loosening up with Gaim, but W-Wizard very heavily followed Den-O's basic pattern:

- Goofy main Rider and serious secondary Rider (inverted in Wizard)
- Big focus on two-part victim- and monster-of-the-week plots
- ... with relatively few overarching story arcs, most of which have pacing issues
- Nonhuman partner who directly helps the Rider fight (Philip, Ankh, Kengo, Belt-san, Koyomi in theory)
- ... who subsequently dies (or at least seems to die) in the finale
- Extremely over-the-top comic relief
- Wacky older male who serves as some form of advisor/mentor for the main Rider

There are variations, sure, but you see most of these elements in modern Rider shows and you can trace pretty much all of them back to Den-O.

Den-O's DNA is pretty deep in Rider since W. It's not immediately apparent as one of the most influential Rider shows, but it is.

It makes me wonder what some of the other most influential Rider shows are, or aspects of them. Obviously not counting the original series since no duh, it shaped everything.

Kuuga would probably be up there, establishing a tone and astehtic for Rider's return in 2000 and following series. Besides that and Den-o, I can't really think of any.

TV standers to change over time. Kuuga and Agito did had more violent moments compare to the newer raiders shows. I remember Kuuga and Agito did show blood when the new Raider shows rarely do.

It's not just Kamen Rider, other shows have tone down over the years. Dragon Ball Super is view as less violent and more light hearted compare to DBZ.

As I understand it, Den-O sold a lot of toys and was a pretty big success. I loved the early episodes but, ultimately, it got a bit dull despite some strong performances.

Gaim has also sold a metric butt-ton (science!) of product. If I were a brain in a jar over at Toei, I'd be thinking Den-O humor mixed with Gaim super-melodrama / weirdness = unbeatable Rider profits!!

Faiz was darj as hell as previously stated and Blade was also really dark. The final episode has a very memorable moment for me Hajime is the last Undead left so the world will be destroyed, but he doesn't want that to happen, and tries killing himself
With Hibiki, the toys not only sold like shit, but the show went over budget and got low ratings (the show even scared kids I hear). Oh, and the reason the female lead in Den-O suddenly became a little girl and the plot revolving around that? Her actress quit due to illness or harassment, can't find a good answer, so they rewrote everything there
Deaths of beloved characters is a happy ending? And Oren being camp gay comic relief makes him stand out due to how different he is from the cast, the clear contrast can be appealing, I know I loved Oren

Japan LOVES Over the Top iirc, After all, Ace Attorney and Jojo are stupidly popular for a reason