Kamen Rider Gavv Episode 19- "The Secret Bittersweet Flavor of Pudding!" Discussion
 

Shoma escapes the attack of Kamen Rider Vlam but must learn more about this strange new Riders' actions...

After Lage 9/KR Vram defeats Hanto/KR Valen, @ 00:59 Lango's agent appears on the top of a building to gather intel, but it's seen by Lage 9/KR Vram. Unlike the Gochizous, the agents look so big, conspicuous, and gaudy, so they create a literal huuuuuuuuge risk of being discovered by their subjects and or humans, which very very very severely compromises their intel gathering ability as shown in this scene. So, being big, conspicuous, gaudy creatures, why the heck do they never try to hide themselves and make themselves more discreet when spying and or gathering intel?:confused: Don't know! The agents are spies, and all spies hide. If that agent hides while scouting and or gathering intel, then Lage 9 identity as KR Vram could've been revealed easily when he detransforms. It's sooooo awfully convenient. It's obvious that the writers needed Lage 9's identity as KR Vram to be hidden from Lango so that they can extend this unnecessary sEcReT iDeNtItY plot as long as they needed, just like Shouma's and Hanto's sEcReT iDeNtItY plot. Great, now this story has 2 equally idiotic sEcReT iDeNtItY plots.

In the scene @ 03:06 Lango (and Glotta) is surprised when his agent in the previous scene informs him that there's the 3rd Granute hunter. His agent says that they're fighting among themselves. So yeah, Lango (and Glotta) doesn't know that Lage 9 is KR Vram. He (and Glotta) also doesn't know that Lage 9/KR Vram acted as a bodyguard for the (bird?) Granute of the week in episodes 17-18. He (and Glotta) conveniently doesn't know many important things, while Nyelv is playing dumb @ 03:27. Heck, he (and Glotta) doesn't even know that Hanto/KR Valen transforms by using the Valen Buster which was created by Kenzou via Nyelv's support in information and resources. Soooooooooo, Nyelv misappropriated Stomach's fund without his (and Glotta's) knowledge at all? What kind of dumb CEO is Lango? It'd be very convenient if only Shouma's Henshin Belt Gavv was developed by Dente and funded by Stomach via Bouche's authorization, but the Valen Buster and the Vrastum Gear were funded with Nyelv's own money.

Like I hypothesized last week in the episode 18 thread here, Shouma brings the injured Hanto to Kenzou's crummy lab @ 03:35. Kenzou says @ 04:13 that he knows Shouma's identity as KR Gavv and tells Shouma that he's the developer of the Valen Buster. Kenzou says @ 04:57 that Hanto's body should recover after resting, and says that it's just like Shouma. Does this mean that he knows about Shouma's sEcReT iDeNtItY as a human-Granute hybrid? Maybe! Kenzou steals 1 strand of Shouma's hair @ 05:19. Soooooooooooo awfully convenient. Kenzou has a superhuman ability of being able to see 1 strand of Shouma's hair, haha.:lol Oh, doesn't Kenzou know that hair and finger nails do not contain DNA, aside from the follicles and nail roots? What if it's actually Hanto's hair that was stuck there when he was brought by Shouma? Haha.:lol What a lazy writing. It seems like Kenzou is gonna do a new experiment with Shouma's DNA. It could be an experiment to extract Shouma's human DNA. Maybe, just maybe, that human DNA is then injected into Jeebh to allow him to gain similar power to Shouma, and allow him to create Gochizous by eating humans' snacks. Jeebh's Gavv would be modified by Nyelv or Kenzou based on Dente's data, or even by Dente himself. The side effect of this DNA injection experiment could likely cause Jeebh to gradually develop sympathy for humans. Jeebh was last seen in episode 16, so there's a high chance that the writers are sidelining him to build momentum for his reappearance with a brand new look and debut as KR Bitter Gavv in episode 21 on February 2 as the toy release date indicated. There's also a lower possibility that Kenzou/Nyelv is trying to create a clone of Shouma based on the extracted DNA, and the clone's Gavv would then be modified with the Henshin Belt Bitter Gavv, similar to how a random Native Worm was ordered to mimic kid Tendou Souji, was given the Dark Kabuto Zecter, and was used as the test subject of the Hyper Zecter experiment in KR Kabuto.

In the scene @ 06:08 Lage 9 has a glimpse of flashback when he's browsing on his smartphone. He says that he need to get close to Stomach, or else the truth will forever be buried. Oh, and the police are still not able to track his identity, let alone location, after the 3 instances of crime he committed in the previous episodes?

Shouma is trying to find the new location of Stomach base camp in the human world, but he can't find it, so @ 07:49 he's commanding the Gochizous to search for it. Why didn't he do it earlier since a million episodes ago?:confused: Don't know!

In the scene @ 08:18 Shouma conveniently encounters Lage 9 at the Toei warehouse (aka studio) parking lot, haha.:lol He follows Lage 9 into a university building where Lage 9 casually enters a class room to commit his signature crime. So yeah, like I hypothesized in the episode 17 thread here, Lage 9 does commit his 4th(!) act of crime using the same exact modus operandi. Heck, he even wears the exact same clothes, his eye-catching (and out of place) big, black coat! And stupidly, the police are still unable to identify him. Gosh! What an awfully dumb, lazy story.

Shouma and Lage 9/KR Vram gets into a fight, and @ 11:28 Lage 9/KR Vram is trying to take Shouma's Henshin Belt Gavv but is unable to remove it because it's directly attached to Shouma's digestive system, and concludes that Shouma is indeed a Granute in the shape of a human. This scene could mean that he may leak this crucial info to Hanto later. And yes, like I hypothesized last week in the episode 18 thread here, Lage 9/KR Vram does tell Shouma the lengthy details(!) of his sob story @ 14:17 regarding his little brother named Komel Amarga. So yeah, like I hypothesized in the episode 17 thread here here and the episode 18 thread here, Lage 9/KR Vram does have an ulterior motive that has something to do with one of his family members, although that family member is male, not a female. The high-pitched teenager voice did sound like a female's voice, haha.:lol Lage 9 shows a piece of paper showing Komel as a missing person. Lage 9 is just an ordinary civilian Granute, not a police/DEA spy. Lage 9 was likely a mine worker, which explains why his Vram Breaker has a sickle mode that looks like a mining hammer. One day, Komel stole Lage 9's money to buy Dark Snacks, and ran from home. Komel came back home dying one year later, and @ 18:07 Lage 9 accuses Shouma of being the Stomach enforcer who fatally injured Komel who he thinks worked as a Stomach part-timer to satiate his Dark Snack addiction.

This is weird. It creates several questions:
- How does Lage 9/KR Vram conclude that Shouma/KR Gavv is a Granute hunter who kills Stomach's part-timers who rebel against Stomach's orders? He knows that the Stomach family members can create their own agents. The agents are basically Stomach's enforcers, and they're 100% controlled by the Stomach family members, so it's impossible for them to betray each of their masters. So, why bother employing a Granute enforcer to straighten up or eliminate rebellious part-timers?
- How does Lage 9/KR Vram conclude that Dark Snacks are novelty foods that are solely sold by Stomach? Out of the possibly many food science/food manufacturing companies in the Granute world, how could he track the Dark Snacks distribution and pinpoint it to Stomach? Unless he has connection in the Granute's police department, or at least has known other Dark Snack junkies, it'd be very convenient if he just know about Stomach as the sole maker of Dark Snacks. This part of Lage 9's back story should be elaborated more.
- The answer: Don't know!

In the scene @ 20:22 Lage 9 is wondering who killed Komel and why he was killed. Shouma says that he wants to help Lage 9 fight Stomach and tells him a little bit of his own sob story about his mom being a Stomach's victim as well. He's preaching to Lage 9 that he should use his power to fight against Stomach's ambition. So yeah, by the next episode, Lage 9/KR Vram will change sides. So yeah, all the 3 main Riders are motivated by revenge. All of them have the same motivation, which make them veeeeeeeery boring. Jeebh went crazy after Shouma/KR Gavv killed Shita, so if Jeebh is later confirmed to be KR Bitter Gavv, then that would make 4(!) Riders that are motivated by revenge. Dang! I really really really hope I'm wrong on this one.

Also, why doesn't Shouma use the Caking RG and transform into KR Gavv Caking form to fight Lage 9/KR Vram? Why does he use the Poppin Gummy RG instead? The Caking RG was only accidentally thrown away @ 11:25, but why doesn't it try to search for Shouma and allow him to transform into KR Gavv Caking form? Of course, as always, the answer is crystal clear: Because the writers needed Shouma not to transform into KR Gavv Caking form. The writers needed to create the hilariously detailed, lengthy infodump about Lage 9/KR Vram's sob story, so if Shouma used the Caking RG and transformed into KR Gavv Caking form, then Lage 9/KR Vram's sob story would fall apart miserably and this episode wouldn't exist in the first place. Yep, it's plot convenience as usual. Gosh, what an infodump galore episode! It's sooooooooooooo pathetically, laughably, indefensibly lazy.

It's finally confirmed that Lage 9 is just an ordinary civilian Granute, not a police/DEA spy. So, the question is, where the heck are the Granute police? Lango stated in episode 5 @ 04:53 that he was concerned that the Granute government might crack down on Stomach's illegal drug operation, so it's clear that the Granute government does enforce the law and has their own DEA/drug enforcement agency. So why hasn't the story showed several other hints about the Granute government's anti-drug authority? Not even the Granute police is mentioned. It'd make no sense at all if a crime story about an organized crime business dealing with drug trafficking and illegal weapon creation (and human trafficking!) has no police/DEA/FBI agents, let alone undercover cops/DEA/FBI agents. It'd be like eating sushi that contains no fish, haha.:lol

Oh, and Sachika is the most irrelevant heroine in this franchise's history. I'm afraid that she'd be given a Rider power just to make her more relevant to the story, like the Revice writers did to Aguilera.

Next week:

So yes, as shown in the preview section @ 23:06, Shouma/KR Gavv does still have the Caking RG. So why doesn't he use it after @ 11:25 like I mentioned above? Why doesn't it try to find Shouma? Don't know!

In the scene @ 23:08 it's shown that Lage 9 is entering the Granute world with Shouma. This is weird. Isn't the interdimensional portal managed/controlled by the Stomach family members and their agents, not part-timers? How is Lage 9, a mere part-timer, able to enter the Granute world through the portal without the agents' knowledge, let alone bring in Shouma, the #1 person on Stomach's most wanted enemy list, with him as well? Don't know!

Lage 9 is fighting one of the agents. So yeah, he'll likely be redeemed by episode 20, likely to make way for Jeebh's debut as the newest dark Rider, KR Bitter Gavv.

In the scene @ 23:10 Lage 9 and Shouma are running away from the agents while bringing several briefcases that very likely contain the Hito Pressed humans, including a missing high-schooler named Takeshi in episode 17. How does a mere part-timer like Lage 9 know where the Hito Pressed humans are stashed inside the Stomach factory? Why isn't a drug factory tightly secured and closely guarded by many of Glotta's agents? Don't know! It seems like episode 20 is Glotta's turn to hold the idiot ball, haha.:lol

Hanto says that he doesn't know why Shouma is helping Lage 9 @ 23:11. So yeah, that's the reason why Hanto is almost completely sidelined in episode 19. This is probably the point where he starts thinking that Shouma may be a Granute. Hellooooo????? You're like 7 episodes overdue, dude. This could be the end of Hanto and Shouma's dumb sEcReT iDeNtItY plot, and after this point Hanto would begin his transition into a dark secondary Rider (like what happened to Sad Boi Keiwa) like shown on the 2nd arc poster several weeks ago.

Shouma in KR Gavv Caking form is fighting Glotta in her full form. Will she also be killed by KR Gavv Caking form? I don't think that's the case. She'd likely survive, and her defeat will turn her into a chaotic, sadistic, bloodlust villain that Lango can't even order around.

Nyelv is giving the new Purujelly RG to Lage 9/KR Vram. I like the jelly theme of the KR Vram Jelly Custom, even the color combination. The shapes of the helmet and armors somehow lack something. It lacks visual flair.

Yo, Lage9 / Vram is –actually a really awesome character! What the heck? Like I didn’t expect him to be boring or a waste of time or anything, but I did not expect them to go this hard either. And I like how they aren’t sugarcoating (heh) his crimes; I was kind of expecting him to reveal that he stored all the Presses somewhere. Does not seem to be the case.

Then again, they do seem to work together and infiltrate Stomach Inc. next week, so maybe they rescue a large amount of victims who are not processed yet, including the young man Shoma is searching for, so maybe that’s how he “makes up” for his wrongdoings? Don’t misunderstand me; I don’t “need” this to happen. If anything, I would prefer him to stay a character with a sinful past. I just wonder how much they will redeem him for kids and parents to root for him; it’s a kid’s show after all. But maybe not everything needs to be perfect, Vram is a great example for someone with right intentions gone wrong, that’s a lesson children need to learn as well. It’s healthy to think about this character and judge him yourself.

Action was awesome too, especially the very well done untransformed sequences!

Also, I’ve seen some images of toys for a “Dark Gavv”, and coincidentally our mad (?) professor grabs a hair of Shoma in this episode – guess I know who will make that belt now. But now I wonder who will wear it. No spoilers please, in case it has been leaked yet.

I looked. Well, Shoma did hit a losing streak. First, an invincible enemy, then Hanto, who was out of action, and then the missing boy was not among those saved. Kenzo also secretly obtains his hair for new experiments. But here, of course, you need to accept an artistic assumption, because in reality, hair removal from clothing can belong to anyone. It would be safer to get it out of your head.
But the main event of the episode is, of course, Lage’s past. Well, it's tragic, as you'd expect from a tertiary rider. At a minimum, Shoma and Hanto were completely helpless and could not save their mothers, unlike the adult, albeit very busy, Lage9. Also, in their desperation, they didn’t harm anyone, while Vram at least sent several dozen people to the factory (it would be very fabulous if none of them were turned into Dark Treats yet). So he has a long road to redemption ahead of him, which, apparently, will begin in the next episode with the invasion of the factory. And this means a stitch with Glotta against a chromakey background, which should be cool. And this means a stitch with Glotta against a chromakey background, which should be cool. Although, given the rumors that Komura will not accept redemption, perhaps Lage9 will still face a heroic death. But before that, he will receive a new form in any case.
P.S. At first I was surprised that Lage lost his brother and not his mother, but then I realized that this was correct. It symbolizes the next stage in Shoma's journey (growing?), when instead of losing his mother (and, to a lesser extent, his father), relationships with siblings come to the fore. But this makes me wonder if Hanto will fade into the background?
It also seems like Lango underestimated Shouma, saying that his younger brother is mentally weak. Although, perhaps the fact is that Lage9’s psyche is even weaker due to his dirty and thankless work under cover.
Also, here's something else I thought about. Notice how the story of Lage9 was told to us. In each new episode, a small part of information was revealed with him and now he is perceived completely differently than when he tried to take Dark Treats from the Agent in his first appearance. Therefore, I believe that even if the expected plot: “Shouma became a berserk and attacked Hanto’s mother” is true, it must contain additional details.
P.P.S. The fight surrounded by frozen, smiling students was very creepy.

Likely redemption for Vram, and it happens actually much faster than I expect.

Shoma finally meets Suga, who is needed to treat Hanto in ways that hospitals cannot. During their interaction, Suga reveals that he is a Granute researcher and the one who modified Hanto. So, the Stomach organization are unaware of Vram's true identity as Lage9. This revelation highlights that Nyelv has his own agenda. They believe Vram is similar to Gavv and Valen, which is technically true, as Vram aims to destroy Stomach Inc. but is doing so undercover.

Turns out Shoma still attempts to reason with Vram, trying to dissuade him from trying to impress the Stomach family. Shoma appears to be more tolerant of Vram compared to Rojoe. Although he calls Vram out for sacrificing humans for Stomach Inc., Shoma seems eager to help Vram find closure regarding Comel's death, and hopes Vram will turn a new leaf by choosing to use his powers to fight against Stomach Inc., compared to him hesitatingly helping Rojoe.

In Vram's flashback, we get a glimpse of Granute society, which shows that not everything revolves around Stomach Inc. (who seeks to dominate their world). Vram only learned about Stomach Inc. 6 months ago, and it’s evident that Granute isn't inherently evil, shown in Comel being a sweet kid who got corrupted by the Dark Treats, resorting to stealing from Lage9 to buy them. And turns out that Comel was still a little boy, Gavv didn't fight and kill him like the part-timers before.

Additionally, it's confirmed that Vram pretended to be a desperate addict in stealing the Dark Treats. He claims he is forced to abduct humans for Dark Treats, yet he shows no hesitation or remorse doing that throughout his appearence. Despite his sympathetic backstory, he remains a villain at this point—not only for abducting humans but also for outright declaring that he doesn't care about anyone's deaths and attempting to murder Shoma afterwards.

While the prolonged out of suit battle scene is quite impressive, and that it makes sense that Shoma is much stronger than humans to face a monster directly, it’s puzzling that Shoma takes so long to henshin. Additionally, with Lage9 likely becoming Shoma's ally, the conflict between Shoma and Hanto is expected to intensify, with Hanto questioning why Shoma is assisting an evil species. Furthermore, Vram also notes Shoma seems to have extensive knowledge about the Stomach family like Hanto.

About rooting for characters, don't really think that being righteous would guarantee someone rooting for them better. Like one reply in Gavv's previous episode of rooting for him over the good side. There are people who'd rather root for bad guys because they find them more interesting and less predictable for instance, how others react to one, like being rooted or not shouldn't determine their morality. Like for redemption, it's about themselves, not about others. Them still being hated and not accepted by others doesn't mean they aren't redeemed, if they turn a new leaf and go straight.

It'd still be a redemption if one actually changes their evil ways to turn good, regardless if they end up dying or not, rather than them staying evil until their end of the screentime. Rejecting redemption is about making the villains impossible to change for the better. Though Hanto didn't harm anyone, he hates an entire species, there's still a potential of him doing that, if he goes after innocents just because they're Granutes, and this episode shows Comel being sweet outside of Dark Treats addiction.

Well, in the case of Lage9, we are (for now) talking about changing actions, not motives. That is, when an undercover police officer commits a crime, he causes evil, but he does not have evil intentions. Therefore, in the case of Lage9, redemption will be precisely stopping the kidnappings and helping people, because it is to people that he causes undeserved harm. If he dies while continuing to play double agent, then this will not be redemption. If the issue is my use of the term ?heroic death,? then this has nothing to do with atonement. That is, Shita?s death was heroic, because she deliberately sacrificed herself to save her brother. But this is clearly not redemption.

I have a feeling Vlam might become the Saikou to Gavv's Saber with Valen being Blades in this case for the next few episodes.

https://i.imgur.com/3t5UAJ5.jpg

It's sort of nuts how much of the acting Eitoku gets to do in this one.

I'm happy about that, obviously, because as I mentioned before, I'm happy about Eitoku playing Vram to begin with, but despite his character also having a human face to him, you're looking at that character in one suit or another for pretty much the entire back half of the episode, if not a bit longer than that, even. It feels pretty unusual, but it also works so well I never even gave it a thought as I was first watching the episode?

I suppose part of the trick there is that the jellyfish monster, despite not having a face that emotes, *is* his untransformed state, so Lage Nine fighting Shouma before Vram fights Gavv is actually perfectly balanced in that sense.

I also probably wasn't thinking about it too much because it's just such an awesome and intense action sequence? Possibly some of my absolute favorite of the entire series so far. Sugihara directing never fails to bump the action up to that next level, but in this specific case, with Shouma entering the confrontation before having time to transform, and how cramped a lot of the spaces are, there's this extra sense of the odds being stacked against him. He can still do the same cool Gavv pose if he wants (great touch that he does, by the way), but without his belt, he's mostly powerless, while his opponent without his belt is probably still a cut above the usual monster of the week.

It's just super interesting for how much more visceral and different it feels than usual, and that still continues even after both of them do break out the belts. You still get touches of the usual flash and imagination, especially that sound effect shield move Gavv pulls, but the beats that most stick out, including that one, tend to do so because of how they're used to show Gavv being, well, beat. He's up against this absurdly tough dude trying to hack him up with a chainsaw, smashing up the building and splattering those beads from Gavv's armor all over the place.

It's very raw, and I like how the action feels that way, because the same word would adequately describe the more emotional conflict going on between the two characters the whole time, as well. They're both learning about each other throughout the fight. Initially in that classic Gavv "crossing t's and dotting i's" kinda fashion, where each of them swiftly and naturally catches up on a bunch of things the audience already knows (Lage Nine finding out why Gavv is called that being particularly fun), but once it gets into more unknown territory for the viewer as well, it becomes personal to the point that Shouma is already asking Vram for an alliance of some kind.

More than that, after finding out that Vram is another lonely character who has obtained power after experiencing great suffering, Shouma is asking Vram if it wouldn't be better to use that power against the system of cruelty that put him here to begin with -- essentially, the question the episode leaves on is if Vram wants to be a Kamen Rider, and that's a cliffhanger that gets me real excited about future events! It's also sort of nuts how quickly the show was able to start building up a dynamic between Gavv and Vram just by getting Valen out of the picture for a single episode. Hopefully Hanto isn't the jealous type!

By the way, if I'm going to be too picky, it's worth noting that Vram gave away his entire backstory, and in return heard almost nothing from Shoma. Lage9 even found out that his belt was Gavv himself by tugging at it. But in principle, I can explain this by the fact that Lage9, who was forced to constantly hide his true nature and do evil, needed to tell and was not at all in the mood to listen. But given Vram`s hatred for Stomatch Inc., will Shoma find himself in a situation where he has secrets from both allies that could turn them into his enemies? Add to this Hanto's hatred of Granutes and it turns out that it will be very difficult for the three riders to find a common language. The problem with secrets is that keeping them too long is just as dangerous as revealing them too early. Shoma has already missed the best chance with Valen, let's see what happens with Vram.

What a dumb thing to say! Of course we don't know, the episode wasn't even out yet! :eyebrow