[ComicGuy89]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah but DC animation gets away with hell of a lot more than Avatar has. DC animation allows characters to die, allows characters to get hurt, allows consequence, adult themes, romance. I'd say they were adult stories and did their best to avoid the censorship walls. Something I feel Avatar never achieved, and Korra did better, but still missed the mark.

But so has Avatar! All those themes you listed are present even in the original show and very clearly so in Korra!

This is why I find this so baffling, Avatar is equivalent to Justice League (for example) in terms of the mature themes they tackle and the content they allow. If you'd argue DC shows are just as bad as Avatar then fine, but to elevate one...

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicGuy89

But so has Avatar! All those themes you listed are present even in the original show and very clearly so in Korra!

This is why I find this so baffling, Avatar is equivalent to Justice League (for example) in terms of the mature themes they tackle and the content they allow. If you'd argue DC shows are just as bad as Avatar then fine, but to elevate one...

Being present isn't the same as being realised. Avatar would imply something while JLU (for example) would actually do it on screen.

[Matrixbeast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Being present isn't the same as being realised. Avatar would imply something while JLU (for example) would actually do it on screen.

It doesn't affect the narrative or story just because one show silhouettes or fade to black X character dies.

[ComicGuy89]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Being present isn't the same as being realised. Avatar would imply something while JLU (for example) would actually do it on screen.

You need to be more specific. You mentioned:

Quote:

Yeah but DC animation gets away with hell of a lot more than Avatar has. DC animation allows characters to die, allows characters to get hurt, allows consequence, adult themes, romance. I'd say they were adult stories and did their best to avoid the censorship walls. Something I feel Avatar never achieved, and Korra did better, but still missed the mark.

All the deaths in JLU were implied or at least muted. When characters get hurt, they don't go further than the stock Western Animation bruise or cut.

In terms of consequences, adult themes and romance, it'll have to be debated individually, but having watched all episodes of both series, I really don't see where JLU "does something" that Avatar would be too afraid to do.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

It doesn't affect the narrative or story just because one show silhouettes or fade to black X character dies.

It does alter investment though. I don't need gritty dark shit all the time, I actually dislike it most of the time, but when I'm watching a show and I know a character I care about can get hurt...or can actually die...I'm watching the battle on the edge of my seat with a wet flannel as I'm sweating so bad. It's intense and thrilling and so enjoyable to watch.

That is a big reason why I've been watching an anime called Shingeki No Kyojin, the show isn't that great, but it's unrelenting in its action and you never know what will happen next. Just don't get attached to anyone.

When I'm watching a show where I know the worst that is gonna happen is he's gonna need a new shirt afterwards, I find it very hard to care. There was one point, where Aang got shot right through his chest, and for me the series peaked there because it was the first, and only time, when shit truly got real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicGuy89

You need to be more specific. You mentioned:



All the deaths in JLU were implied or at least muted. When characters get hurt, they don't go further than the stock Western Animation bruise or cut.

In terms of consequences, adult themes and romance, it'll have to be debated individually, but having watched all episodes of both series, I really don't see where JLU "does something" that Avatar would be too afraid to do.

Off the top of my head - Batman Beyond. Terry becomes Batman to avenge his fathers murder, after Powers creates a chemical weapon which kills people and his Dad got to close. Not implied. Real. The death of his Dad and his Mother's battle to hold everything together was a central aspect to the series.

Until they started to mess around with how Terry was...but you get my point. It happened.

[Matrixbeast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

It does alter investment though. I don't need gritty dark shit all the time, I actually dislike it most of the time, but when I'm watching a show and I know a character I care about can get hurt...or can actually die...I'm watching the battle on the edge of my seat with a wet flannel as I'm sweating so bad. It's intense and thrilling and so enjoyable to watch.

That is a big reason why I've been watching an anime called Shingeki No Kyojin, the show isn't that great, but it's unrelenting in its action and you never know what will happen next. Just don't get attached to anyone.

When I'm watching a show where I know the worst that is gonna happen is he's gonna need a new shirt afterwards, I find it very hard to care. There was one point, where Aang got shot right through his chest, and for me the series peaked there because it was the first, and only time, when shit truly got real.

I can understand that.
I just don't feel a story can be told well when it's a "Who's gonna die next!?!" style of writing, because characters are introduced later on who can perform the same tasks as X character who died and turn into poor expies of said character *Cough*Near*Cough*Mello*CoughCough* and just don't have the same allure or charm as who we got invested in earlier.

While I do understand that it's hard to feel explicit tension when a main character is put into a dangerous situation because being genre savvy makes it difficult, the same is true of almost any series, where it's either a torn shirt and a bit of red jam on their face or making death cheap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Off the top of my head - Batman Beyond. Terry becomes Batman to avenge his fathers murder, after Powers creates a chemical weapon which kills people and his Dad got to close. Not implied. Real. The death of his Dad and his Mother's battle to hold everything together was a central aspect to the series.

Until they started to mess around with how Terry was...but you get my point. It happened.

Katara's mother's murder happened. It was a huge part of Katara's backstory and motivation.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

I can understand that.
I just don't feel a story can be told well when it's a "Who's gonna die next!?!" style of writing, because characters are introduced later on who can perform the same tasks as X character who died and turn into poor expies of said character *Cough*Near*Cough*Mello*CoughCough* and just don't have the same allure or charm as who we got invested in earlier.

While I do understand that it's hard to feel explicit tension when a main character is put into a dangerous situation because being genre savvy makes it difficult, the same is true of almost any series, where it's either a torn shirt and a bit of red jam on their face or making death cheap.



Katara's mother's murder happened. It was a huge part of Katara's backstory and motivation.

Oh if the whole crux and novelty is gonna be 'who is gonna die next' then I don't appreciate it either. But I like my shows to have actual cause and effect and consequence something that Avatar rarely had.

And really? I remember nothing about Katara at all, I only made it through the first two seasons and I felt I had given the show enough of my time to impress me and it hadn't yet.

[ComicGuy89]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

I can understand that.
I just don't feel a story can be told well when it's a "Who's gonna die next!?!" style of writing, because characters are introduced later on who can perform the same tasks as X character who died and turn into poor expies of said character *Cough*Near*Cough*Mello*CoughCough* and just don't have the same allure or charm as who we got invested in earlier.

While I do understand that it's hard to feel explicit tension when a main character is put into a dangerous situation because being genre savvy makes it difficult, the same is true of almost any series, where it's either a torn shirt and a bit of red jam on their face or making death cheap.

I agree, when Anyone can Die is abused it cheapens the story. That was actually very well put, Matrix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Katara's mother's murder happened. It was a huge part of Katara's backstory and motivation.

Also, Iroh's son's death practically formed his personality. As did Zuko's mother's disappearance (not a death, but for all intents and purposes is).

[Locke]

But once again 'practically' and 'for all intents and purposes' is different than it actually happening in the story and narrative. That is why I didn't appreciate Avatar and found it very kid friendly, whereas I found stuff like JLU, BTAS and Beyond much more catered for an adult (or at least much older) audience.

[Matrixbeast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Oh if the whole crux and novelty is gonna be 'who is gonna die next' then I don't appreciate it either. But I like my shows to have actual cause and effect and consequence something that Avatar rarely had.

And really? I remember nothing about Katara at all, I only made it through the first two seasons and I felt I had given the show enough of my time to impress me and it hadn't yet.

Really? I felt Season 2 had tons of consequencies to the actions of the characters.
Eh. Not every show is for everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicGuy89

I agree, when Anyone can Die is abused it cheapens the story. That was actually very well put, Matrix.

Also, Iroh's son's death practically formed his personality. As did Zuko's mother's disappearance (not a death, but for all intents and purposes is).

Well, Iroh's son's death was a wartime casualty, so while it does shape his character, I wasn't inclined to include it because it happened so long ago.

And people died in JLU and BTAS (Outside of Bruce's parents)?
I can only remember Devil Ray, and his death was silhouetted out.