[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Locke

Because we've kinda moved on from this now, haven't we?

Moved on from what? Originality?

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Yeah in the 40s we had heroes being born from cosmic rays but in the seventy years since we've tried to make stories actually coherent and...actual stories.

It is an actual story. It just has a made-up premise. MOST SCIENCE FICTION DOES. That's the most nonsense comment I've ever read from you.

I don't understand you. OOO does tell a story and keeps it's lore, relatively, coherant based on it's own rules that it establishes. There's nothing wrong with the premise because, well, it's Kamen Rider. It's not supposed to be grounded in reality. I'm relly fucking confused right now as to what your actual issue with the show is.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Meteor

It's conversations like this that make md realize how shallow i am. I love OOO more then just about anybody on this forum. And the most I got out of the entire series was boy, this show was awesome!

There is no wrong way to like tokusatsu. But lord knows I put almost no thought into these shows.

That's fine. But that's not to say you shouldn't put any thought into it.

OOO's villains being collection of medals that have a will of their own and there's a hero who can use them to magically change into an armoured warrior? I'll buy that. It's not like anything in the show exists to contradict it. That's the basic premise.

Lost Ankh existing as a seperate being because Ankh's medals were split? Well, that doesn't make sense because none of the other Greed did that despite also having their medals split.

[Locke]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Moved on from what? Originality?

It is an actual story. It just has a made-up premise. MOST SCIENCE FICTION DOES. That's the most nonsense comment I've ever read from you.

I don't understand you. OOO does tell a story and keeps it's lore, relatively, coherant based on it's own rules that it establishes. There's nothing wrong with the premise because, well, it's Kamen Rider. It's not supposed to be grounded in reality. I'm relly fucking confused right now as to what your actual issue with the show is.

Moved on from 'how does that work' 'err...reasons'. When shows bring direct focus on the cogs of their universe, these days you're actually required to make it make sense and give it a sense of logic beyond hand waving.

OOO is the story of 'there were some dudes once who made homonculi medals'
'oh wow, how does that work?'
'that isn't important'
'err well it kinda-'
'ANYWAY they removed one of the medals and-'
'they removed one of the medals, why?'
'that isn't important'
'err well it-'
'ANYWAY they became whole and now they are monsters. The end.'
'What?'
'That isn't important.'
'I give up...'
'That is exactly what we wanted!'

All of these shows are made up but that doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself. OOOs lore is just completely nonsense. Science Fiction makes their universes work and believable under their own internal logic. OOO is so poorly explained and half realised it has no internal logic to hold the thing up. That is my problem, compared to the other Rider shows I have seen, OOO is nonsense and blows up just how stupid it is a thousandfold.

Fourze and Wizard may not have some rich coherent universe either but it only gives us small windows into the internal cogs so we get just enough to know what is going on and not too much so we're questioning the finer details.

Also watched OOO 31, fairly uninteresting episode but the purple medals of death present interesting opportunities for the future.

[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Locke

Moved on from 'how does that work' 'err...reasons'. When shows bring direct focus on the cogs of their universe, these days you're actually required to make it make sense and give it a sense of logic beyond hand waving.

OOO is the story of 'there were some dudes once who made homonculi medals'
'oh wow, how does that work?'
'that isn't important'
'err well it kinda-'
'ANYWAY they removed one of the medals and-'
'they removed one of the medals, why?'
'that isn't important'
'err well it-'
'ANYWAY they became whole and now they are monsters. The end.'
'What?'
'That isn't important.'
'I give up...'
'That is exactly what we wanted!'

All of these shows are made up but that doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself. OOOs lore is just completely nonsense. Science Fiction makes their universes work and believable under their own internal logic. OOO is so poorly explained and half realised it has no internal logic to hold the thing up. That is my problem, compared to the other Rider shows I have seen, OOO is nonsense and blows up just how stupid it is a thousandfold.

Fourze and Wizard may not have some rich coherent universe either but it only gives us small windows into the internal cogs so we get just enough to know what is going on and not too much so we're questioning the finer details.

Literally half your little sarcastic back and fourth is actually explained.

They removed one of the medals to create desire, which this show explains is supposedly the basis for intelligent life. The desire to survive, desire to achieve, etc. The medals were alive, but lacked any kind of lasting motivation. The desire to be whole would be a constant, infallible drive that would be with them every second of their being.

You say "that isn't important" like you're being witty, but really you're just showing how little you seem to pay attention. Now, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you just haven't gotten to when they go into detail about most of this (have you seen the purple medals yet or heard of the king? Because if not then that really explains your position. That stuff REALLY explains in detail exactly what happened and how it works)

Let me take your oh-so witty examination of the show and apply some actual "let's actually use the show's answers"-ness.

OOO is the story of 'there were some dudes once who made homonculi medals'
'oh wow, how does that work?'
'They used a combination of ancient science and magic to harness the powers of the fittest animals to create powerful life'

'ANYWAY they removed one of the medals and-'
'they removed one of the medals, why?'
'To create a desire to be whole so said life would grow to have sentience since the medals didn't really have a reason to do anything as medals'

'ANYWAY they became whole (rather, they became sentient) and now they are monsters. Not the end but that's the story up until the show starts.'
'What?'
'Well, the medals needed physical form to acheive their desire, so their medals (being part magic used to create life in the first place) created bodies combined from the different animals they took power from. However since they're desire could not be fulfilled because the tenth medal of each set was destroyed, they became obsessed with an unsatisfiable desire that twisted them into monsters.'

'I give up...'
'That's because you didn't bother to finish the show.'

See what happens when you actually use the information given by the show? Now granted, I chalk some of this up to the obviously poor subs your're using since even a single noun misplaced or altered can very drastically alter meaning and create confusion, AND you haven't actually gotten to the part (I don't think) when all this is explained in the show itself.

OOO is far from perfect, but literally the only thing that doesn't add up about it's mythos is the actual creation of the medals which is never actually seen, but that's also supposed to be a bt of a mystery. (all we know is that alchemists created them with a combination of ancient science and dark arts) I have a BUNCH of reservations about OOO, but you're being 100% unfair in your assesment of it's backstory. It's not the writers being lazy, if anything it's the opposite. They tried to put so much in they couldn't fit everything or explain it properly.

Try watching Den-O sometime. It's a GREAT series chock full of lovable, memorable characters and great moments, but it really only has an overarching plot for the last fifteen episodes (although there's many character arcs and plots revolving the characters) and doesn't really explain the main plot point and conflict in the show. (where the Imagin, the monsters of teh show, even came from) OOO, seriously, had no reason to fully explain the Greed as far as it did, or even how the medals were created. But it gave it a shot because it figured the audience deserved some kind of explanation.

[Switchblade]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Meteor

There is no wrong way to like tokusatsu.

Yes there is.

You can like the last 19 episodes of Hibiki more than the first 29. That is categorically and objectively wrong and it makes you a bad person.

[EnerPrime]

So I just watched Ultimatum and I totally agree with all the negativity about the fanservice. It seemed like every time a girl fought it was all slow-mo and sound effects. Which is sad because I really like Nadeshiko's fighting style, it's all acrobatics combined with surprising brutality.

Otherwise I liked it. It's a nice little self contained post series story for Fourze, and a fun side adventure for Wizard. I'm sure there's a few minor plotholes if you sit and think about them, but nothing huge that threw me out of the movie.

[Locke]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Literally half your little sarcastic back and fourth is actually explained.

They removed one of the medals to create desire, which this show explains is supposedly the basis for intelligent life. The desire to survive, desire to achieve, etc. The medals were alive, but lacked any kind of lasting motivation. The desire to be whole would be a constant, infallible drive that would be with them every second of their being.

OOO is far from perfect, but literally the only thing that doesn't add up about it's mythos is the actual creation of the medals which is never actually seen, but that's also supposed to be a bt of a mystery. (all we know is that alchemists created them with a combination of ancient science and dark arts) I have a BUNCH of reservations about OOO, but you're being 100% unfair in your assesment of it's backstory. It's not the writers being lazy, if anything it's the opposite. They tried to put so much in they couldn't fit everything or explain it properly.

The king thing was a few episodes back and was a very different flashback to what we saw before. The purple medals have literally just been introduced the last episode I saw.

To be fair with how utterly bland and uninteresting I found the show before Date, I really wasn't paying much attention. I guess now the show actually has identity and stuff that is actually interesting to watch I am paying attention so I'm bound to be a bit confused.

Still though, a huge part of your explanation rests on 'because magic' which is better known as hand waving.

The writers give too much information and too much information that is poorly thought out. I guess I should be mad that Fourze and Wizard give such little of their backstory but it is actually better for it, because the more we know, the more we have to question and Fourze and Wizard give us just enough to understand without too much to question.

[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Locke

The king thing was a few episodes back and was a very different flashback to what we saw before. The purple medals have literally just been introduced the last episode I saw.

Ah, so the King will bring some stuff up later, you haven't seen the last of him, and the purple medals lead into the real payoff.

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To be fair with how utterly bland and uninteresting I found the show before Date, I really wasn't paying much attention. I guess now the show actually has identity and stuff that is actually interesting to watch I am paying attention so I'm bound to be a bit confused.

This is also a possibility.

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Still though, a huge part of your explanation rests on 'because magic' which is better known as hand waving.

Except it's not and it doesn't. Magic factors in only to how the Greed were created and expalins where their abilities come from (though the abilities themselves, while also magic based, aren't "do whatever you want" powers) how the OOO driver works.

It's magic with rules. It's used sparingly in the show as an actual excuse and always comes "from something." A lot of what the Greed are about and what happens is about the evolution of the Medals and just life in general.

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The writers give too much information and too much information that is poorly thought out.

But it's NOT poorly thought-out. Again, It's been a while since I've seen OOO's second half so I don't know exactly when it happens, but it is all explained and is not thought out poorly.

The only things that were poorly plotted was Lost-Ankh (aside from the ingongruities with the story I just felt he overstayed his welcome) and somethign near the end which I don't want to spoil it becuse it's half cool half "huh?"

And of course, there's the final episode, which is probably one of the best Kamen Rider finales.

[Matrixbeast]

Fourze gives a total backstory dump during the last 5-10 episodes. It's poorly handled, but I'm curious how you're going to praise it just to prop Fourze as high than OOOs

[Locke]

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Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Fourze gives a total backstory dump during the last 5-10 episodes. It's poorly handled, but I'm curious how you're going to praise it just to prop Fourze as high than OOOs

I'm already starting to see Fourze's problems as said by other members. Aries had like fifteen episodes of hype and although it was an arc of key moments, he became a villain of the week only lasting two very rushed episodes. I can see a cluterfuck mess in Fourze's future, the first half of the show was miles stronger than the second.

Either way I still think thus far Fourze is miles better than OOO, I mean Fourze really is in space in terms of the gap between the two shows quality.

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

It's magic with rules. It's used sparingly in the show as an actual excuse and always comes "from something." A lot of what the Greed are about and what happens is about the evolution of the Medals and just life in general.

But it's NOT poorly thought-out. Again, It's been a while since I've seen OOO's second half so I don't know exactly when it happens, but it is all explained and is not thought out poorly.

The only things that were poorly plotted was Lost-Ankh (aside from the ingongruities with the story I just felt he overstayed his welcome) and somethign near the end which I don't want to spoil it becuse it's half cool half "huh?"

And of course, there's the final episode, which is probably one of the best Kamen Rider finales.

I have yet to see any of these 'rules' you speak of. I mean they have said a lot about how this whole Medal shebang works but not a lot of it has really been upheld or followed.

But I guess I'll wait and see if this final quarter changes my mind.

[Matrixbeast]

I was joking about the Fourze thing
I don't really care which series you find better.

Though, there is a funny trend I've been noticing.

Show gets any praise?
"This show is shit. Overrated trash."
Show gets decried as poor?
"I don't see what's going on. This show is the greatest!"