[SPLIT LIP]

I have to admit, the more I hear people trash past riders for not being "subdued and quiet" like Haruto and say they "scream and shout and people mistake that for substance", I can't help but imagine them wearing sweatervests and thick-rimmed glasses with slicked back hair, even though I shouldn't.

Haruto represents the exact opposite of what people praise him for. He is not subdued, he is not deep or layered beyond anyone else. He has the exact same amount of depth to him as most riders, if not less. People are just mistaking bad acting and lack of emotion for some intent to be more "mature" when really he's just a bad actor and poorly written. (neitehr alone would condemn the character, but together it makes for a terrible, terrible rider)

There is not layering to Haruto. He never shows emotion, never cracks, never even bends. That doesn't make him badass or cool, it makes him emotionally dead or an idiot. Past riders "scream and shout" because they feel emotion and react liek a human being. Haruto just stands there with a vacant expression on his face like he's reading his lines off of a card offscreen.

I ahve never rooted for Haruto. I've never even been against him. I have no opinion of him as a person because he is not a person, he is a prop and we are told things about him. The only layer to his character is wanting to save people, somethign MOST MODERN RIDERS WANT TO DO.

I especially laughed when they explained the whole "Haruto is the hope for so many people, but who is his hope?" like it's trying to be deep or something when there's NO evidence of that in the show. Hell, we don't even know what him being their hope MEANS since it makes no sense in a practical or metaphorical sense. He's not carrying any burden. He fights a monster than leaves. The very basis for the character is a fabrication.

Haruto may not be the worst of Wizard or a truely bad rider, but that doesn't make him a good character. Hell, Den-O and W are vastly superior characters with far more interest right out of the gate. Ryoutaro may not be much of a man at first, but for someone who was, rather unfairly, drafted into a life-and-death struggle, and rather than meekly avoid the confrontation (I'm spoiling a bit here) he actually trains himself and takes his forced-apon role seriously. He's a champ. Shotaro, well, he's just fucking great. His driven, and despite repeatedly being called an idiot (and not exactly putting up a strong defense with his actions at times) he's, once again, placed with an unfair burden and shoulders it first out of guilt, then later out of respect and, too sound a bit corny, a genuine sense of justice. And of course, Philip also makes up part of W, and he has a very strong character by the end of the show. I mentioned it not long ago in reference to PuToTyra, but the Fang arc, despite being shorter, was a far greater service to the character and really bolstered the genuine bond between Philip and Shotaro.

Haruto... ugh. I mean, for all your talk about not being a fan of perfect, ultimate heroes Locke... Haruto is exactly that. He has, at least in what I've seen, yet to make any kind of mistake or be flawed realistically in any way. Plus, the show makes a point that he's getting stronger and harder to beat. Add to that his powers are literally just handed to him with no struggle. He has achieved nothing yet constantly succeeds. He's not a fighter, he's a chump who got lucky. The closest thing to a struggle he has is the barely mentioned struggle with his Phantom... which is ruined by, again barely being an issue, and because it's a silly CGI dragon that talks and just sort of does nothing.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Haruto represents the exact opposite of what people praise him for. He is not subdued, he is not deep or layered beyond anyone else. He has the exact same amount of depth to him as most riders, if not less. People are just mistaking bad acting and lack of emotion for some intent to be more "mature" when really he's just a bad actor and poorly written. (neitehr alone would condemn the character, but together it makes for a terrible, terrible rider)

There is not layering to Haruto. He never shows emotion, never cracks, never even bends. That doesn't make him badass or cool, it makes him emotionally dead or an idiot. Past riders "scream and shout" because they feel emotion and react liek a human being. Haruto just stands there with a vacant expression on his face like he's reading his lines off of a card offscreen.

I ahve never rooted for Haruto. I've never even been against him. I have no opinion of him as a person because he is not a person, he is a prop and we are told things about him. The only layer to his character is wanting to save people, somethign MOST MODERN RIDERS WANT TO DO.

I especially laughed when they explaine dthe whole "Haruto is the hope for so many people, but who is his hope?" like it's trying to be deep or something when there's NO evidence of that in the show. Hell, we don't even know what him being their hope MEANS since it makes no sense in a practical or metaphorical sense. He's not carrying any burden. He fights a monster than leaves. The very basis for the character is a fabrication.

Haruto may not be the worst of Wizard or a truely bad rider, but that doesn't make him a good character. Hell, Den-O and W are vastly superior characters with far more interest right out of the gate. Ryoutaro may not be much of a man at first, but for someone who was, rather unfairly, drafted into a life-and-death struggle, and rather than meekly avoid the confrontation (I'm spoiling a bit here) he actually trains himself and takes his forced-apon role seriously. He's a champ. Shotaro, well, he's just fucking great. His driven, and despite repeatedly being called an idiot (and not exactly putting up a strong defense with his actions at times) he's, once again, placed with an unfair burden and shoulders it first out of guilt, then later out of respect and, too sound a bit corny, a genuine sense of justice. And of course, Philip also makes up part of W, and he has a very strong character by the end of the show. I mentioned it not long ago in reference to PuToTyra, but the Fang arc, despite being shorter, was a far greater service to the character and really bolstered the genuine bond between Philip and Shotaro.

Haruto... ugh. I mean, for all your talk about not being a fan of perfect, ultimate heroes Locke... Haruto is exactly that. He has, at least in what I've seen, yet to make any kind of mistake or be flawed realistically in any way. Plus, the show makes a point that he's getting stronger and harder to beat. Add to that his powers are literally just handed to him with no struggle. He has achieved nothing yet constantly succeeds. He's not a fighter, he's a chump who got lucky.

I's clear how different our tastes are, I don't think Haruto is a bad actor or emotionless, I find his subtle humour absolutely hilarious, much funnier than any of the goofball shit that toku tries to tell me is comedy the rest of the time.

These little hints into how Haruto sees the world and how his mind functions shows how good the writing is and how interesting he is as a character. He may not have as much depth as some Riders but has much more than Riders like Gen and Godai, much, much more.

It is true that most of Haruto's drama has taken place off screen and before the series started but little windows into him are always enjoyable perhaps because they are used sparingly. But still we've seen him struggle to hold things together and overcome the enemy many a time over the course of the series.

The difference with Haruto is he can actually live up to his bold claims and saves people because it's the right thing to do. They aren't world changing motivations but they are better than Godai's 'protect the smiles' (while millions of people die as he plays the piano for school kids) or Gen's (I'm gonna be friends with everyone and downplay all the drama and tension of my series while I do).

Although I will admit that now the enemies no longer kill, or even harm, it does become a lot harder to root for the heroes because there is never any real sense of danger. I mean you know they're gonna win, regardless, but their artificial struggle is only all the more artificial now they aren't really struggling against anything.

Wizard's lore still makes more sense than OOOs.

I couldn't stand that wimp from Den-O out of the gate, I loved Haruto from the start.

I would still class Haruto as a flawed hero, he doesn't just steamroll through every skirmish with no collateral and has struggles on and off the battle field, internally and externally.

Godai is a so perfect he is bland hero, Tendou is a so perfect he is bland hero, Haruto is detailed, fun and interesting.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

I's clear how different our tastes are, I don't think Haruto is a bad actor or emotionless, I find his subtle humour absolutely hilarious, much funnier than any of the goofball shit that toku tries to tell me is comedy the rest of the time.

These little hints into how Haruto sees the world and how his mind functions shows how good the writing is and how interesting he is as a character. He may not have as much depth as some Riders but has much more than Riders like Gen and Godai, much, much more.

It is true that most of Haruto's drama has taken place off screen and before the series started but little windows into him are always enjoyable perhaps because they are used sparingly. But still we've seen him struggle to hold things together and overcome the enemy many a time over the course of the series.

The difference with Haruto is he can actually live up to his bold claims and saves people because it's the right thing to do. They aren't world changing motivations but they are better than Godai's 'protect the smiles' (while millions of people die as he plays the piano for school kids) or Gen's (I'm gonna be friends with everyone and downplay all the drama and tension of my series while I do).

Although I will admit that now the enemies no longer kill, or even harm, it does become a lot harder to root for the heroes because there is never any real sense of danger. I mean you know they're gonna win, regardless, but their artificial struggle is only all the more artificial now they aren't really struggling against anything.

Wizard's lore still makes more sense than OOOs.

Everything you said would be just fine... if this wasn't the MAIN CHARACTER OF THE SHOW.

"Little windows into the character" is not enough when this is the hero. It is not evidence of good writing, rather the opposite. We should not be told everything important about him. We need to see it, not get second-hand accounts that could be mistaken or lying. I can't believe I need to say this, but show, don't tell.

And that's even accepting that these "little windows" exist. Again, the problem with being a bad actor with bland, forgettable dialogue means eveyrthing you do is ingenuine. None of his struggles feel, not that I ever witnessed any, feel genuine because he's not conveying any emotion. I don't mean to play therapist, but how does any of this make him FEEL? We don't know, because he never shows it. We may sometimes have one of the stupid characters tell us, but their stupid so what could they know?

I sat through sixteen episodes of Wizard and Haruto never did a damn thing. Not once. Nothing I can remember. He never saved anyone in a memorable "man, that got me" way. He puts a ring on their finger, rubs their hand on his crotch, then fights a Half-Life enemy. No pretending to be a little girl's dead father to spare her the pain of learning the truth, no risking time to make sure a family isn't broken up by a misunderstanding, just "Plain sugar." Hell, it's like the writers realise how bland he is and made him pick the blandest, most unexciting doughnut there is as some sort of commentary on their own errible writing.

I mean really I read your post and think "where the hell did you pull that from?" Because nothing you said actually happened in the time I watched the show. Subtle humour? He laughed once, but that wasn't humour. He was laughing at Stinko dressed as santa or something. There's no humour about him, subtle or not. Windows into his character? Again, WHAT WINDOWS? What exactly ever happened that made him react in any way besides "I must fight?"

Oh, and Wizard's lore, what little there is, really doesn't since "because a wizard did it" is not an explanation, nor does it make sense. At least OOO showed us most of what happened all that time in the past. Wizard gave us one badly done flashback that they repeated for a bit for, like, five episodes before apparently what the villains are doing and why isn't important. Hell, Wiseman just showed up and he, aside from looking about as threatening as the Terror Dopant, has done, said, and generally been nothing.

[Matrixbeast]

Where does the "Past riders screaming and shouting" thing come from?
Of the series I've seen, Shinji (Ryuki), Kazuma (Blade), Tendou (Kabuto), Wataru (Kiva), Tsukasa (Decade), Shotaro (Double), and to a lesser extent, Eiji (OOO) rarely ever raised their voices beyond their "Emotional" moments or during fights.

All these characters are subdued and grounded, they're not fireballs, they're more like steady flames.

Where are you pulling this "Past riders are all yelling and screaming and everyone confuses that for characterization" bullshit? I'm honestly confused.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Everything you said would be just fine... if this wasn't the MAIN CHARACTER OF THE SHOW.

"Little windows into the character" is not enough when this is the hero. It is not evidence of good writing, rather the opposite. We should not be told everything important about him. We need to see it, not get second-hand accounts that could be mistaken or lying. I can't believe I need to say this, but show, don't tell.

And that's even accepting that these "little windows" exist. Again, the problem with being a bad actor with bland, forgettable dialogue means eveyrthing you do is ingenuine. None of his struggles feel, not that I ever witnessed any, feel genuine because he's not conveying any emotion. I don't mean to play therapist, but how does any of this make him FEEL? We don't know, because he never shows it. We may sometimes have one of the stupid characters tell us, but their stupid so what could they know?

I sat through sixteen episodes of Wizard and Haruto never did a damn thing. Not once. Nothing I can remember. He never saved anyone in a memorable "man, that got me" way. He puts a ring on their finger, rubs their hand on his crotch, then fights a Half-Life enemy. No pretending to be a little girl's dead father to spare her the pain of learning the truth, no risking time to make sure a family isn't broken up by a misunderstanding, just "Plain sugar." Hell, it's like the writers realise how bland he is and made him pick the blandest, most unexciting doughnut there is as some sort of commentary on their own errible writing.

I mean really I read your post and think "where the hell did you pull that from?" Because nothing you said actually happened in the time I watched the show. Subtle humour? He laughed once, but that wasn't humour. He was laughing at Stinko dressed as santa or something. There's no humour about him, subtle or not. Windows into his character? Again, WHAT WINDOWS? What exactly ever happened that made him react in any way besides "I must fight?"

Oh, and Wizard's lore, what little there is, really doesn't since "because a wizard did it" is not an explanation, nor does it make sense. At least OOO showed us most of what happened all that time in the past. Wizard gave us one badly done flashback that they repeated for a bit for, like, five episodes before apparently what the villains are doing and why isn't important. Hell, Wiseman just showed up and he, aside from looking about as threatening as the Terror Dopant, has done, said, and generally been nothing.

You shouldn't use the shows pacing as a reflection on the character. Haruto is sound the show just gives him very little focus because it wastes all its time on the Gate of the week.

Really the criticism of the lack of insight into Haruto as a Rider is a flaw I'd have with all of Kamen Rider, cheesy and clichéd as it was, whenever the Power Rangers would morph for the first time in their respective season and they'd have that fight where they'd do a dramatic morph and test out their powers with gleeful exclamations of how awesome all of it was, it made a big difference between feeling like something has happened and that they've just put on a costume but Kamen Rider seems to rarely have that, it rarely seems to explore what the character is going through in their battles or how the powers effect them and all the fun things they could do with them.

It's like Date right, love the character, but I would have rather there was no bullet subplot and instead he was hurting simply because of the effect the suit has on its body. No matter how hard the show tries to make him feel like Ironman his general lack of interest in the suit and its powers reduces it to feeling as plasticy as it actually is.

Haruto's humour is usually in the form of wry comments, I guess if you don't have a dry sarcastic sense of humour you might not even pick up on what he is saying as jokes. I picked up on it and laughed every time. Also when you see his Underworld you get a much better feel of the character and his motivations and he gets stronger from there. Although I liked him before that.

Also there is more to Wizard than the White Wizard and you're just being facetious now, so I feel no reason to debate that at all.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Where does the "Past riders screaming and shouting" thing come from?
Of the series I've seen, Shinji (Ryuki), Kazuma (Blade), Tendou (Kabuto), Wataru (Kiva), Tsukasa (Decade), Shotaro (Double), and to a lesser extent, Eiji (OOO) rarely ever raised their voices beyond their "Emotional" moments or during fights.

All these characters are subdued and grounded, they're not fireballs, they're more like steady flames.

Where are you pulling this "Past riders are all yelling and screaming and everyone confuses that for characterization" bullshit? I'm honestly confused.

Again, this seems like a very knee-jerk "Well you say that this rider is dull, that's just because he's not, uh, er... SHOUTING everything, yeah! He's not loud like past, stupid riders, he's subdued, not dull!"

The only thing is maybe he means how most riders have some kind of bold, unobtainable claim that makes them look naive... but agian, nobody does that. Shotaro has "no tears in my city" and Shinji has "I will stop the fighting between riders" but out of those two Ryuki's is totally doable, and Shotaro's isn't a claim, but rather indicative of his general opinion on emotions and what controlling your emotions means. He's a heart-on-his-sleeve guy, but aspires to be reserved and hardboiled like his boss was, not realising until later that emotions aren't something you do away with, that they fuel you. It's him finding the fine line of being tough and "hardboiled" and let your emotions out when appropriate, which is probably one of the reasons so many love him.

But no, "plain sugar" is far more deep.

[SideswipePrime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Don't worry. I mentioned that I didn't like Gokaiger and I got labeled a hater for weeks.

HATER!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

It also doesn't help that the show is just kind of devoid of energy. A BIG part of this is the music, though, which is as generic as they come. There's no memorable, energetic theme songs or fight tunes. If there's no good fight music the fights are basically only as exciting as the actual moves... which aren't all that exciting.

For as loud and energetic as the secondary cast is, the show itself feels totally lifeless. (seriously, I don't hate loud or hyper characters at all, but if EVERYONE except two people are these loud and hyper characters, it gets grating. I can stand Akiko because there's only one of her, for example. Imagine that in stereo)

I-it kind of is, yeah.

[Locke]

I didn't realise I'd need to disclaimer this every time but as people are clearly very forgetful *out of the shows I have seen. Not every Rider series since the dawn of mankind.

Maybe there are all these other shows that do Haruto better but so far I've come across a lot more goofs than I have characters of any substance or depth and that is why I find both Haruto and Eiji so enjoyable.

[SideswipePrime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

I didn't realise I'd need to disclaimer this every time but as people are clearly very forgetful *out of the shows I have seen. Not every Rider series since the dawn of mankind.

Maybe there are all these other shows that do Haruto better but so far I've come across a lot more goofs than I have characters of any substance or depth and that is why I find both Haruto and Eiji so enjoyable.

Hm...well out of the ones I've seen, here's my rankings.

1. Gentarou
2. Wataru
3. Ryotarou
4. Haruto
5. Tsukasa (I haven't finished Decade yet, so who knows? maybe he'll move up.)

[SPLIT LIP]

Okay, a lot of what you say here doesn't have a lot to do with what we're talking about, so I'm only going to respond to what is in an attempt to streamline our posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

You shouldn't use the shows pacing as a reflection on the character. Haruto is sound the show just gives him very little focus because it wastes all its time on the Gate of the week.

You typo'd or autocorrected or something so I'm not sure what you're saying, but yes, I can absolutely use the show's pacing as a reflection of the character, because the show's pacing affects EVERYTHING IN IT.

People have a habit of pointing out aspects as if they standalone, not remembering that all these terms like 'pacing' go together to make the show what it is, and they all affect eachother. If anything you are just reinforcing my arguement taht teh show has no redeemign factros if it's pacing is affecting an otherwise acceptable character.

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Really the criticism of the lack of insight into Haruto as a Rider is a flaw I'd have with all of Kamen Rider,

Except it isn't, and you can't even come close to saying that. I just went on an abridged tirade about Shotaro's character and what we find out about him in the first sixteen episodes. Ditto Shinji. Haruto has no excuse.

Quote:

It's like Date right, love the character, but I would have rather there was no bullet subplot and instead he was hurting simply because of the effect the suit has on its body. No matter how hard the show tries to make him feel like Ironman his general lack of interest in the suit and its powers reduces it to feeling as plasticy as it actually is.

Except you see, I feel like that would be the easy and typical way out. Hell, you yourself complained about Eiji's initial strain from combos.

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Haruto's humour is usually in the form of wry comments, I guess if you don't have a dry sarcastic sense of humour you might not even pick up on what he is saying as jokes.

Oh wow, you actually used "it's not the show, it's you." Almost word-for-word.

Haruto does not have a wry sense of humour, he has no sense of humour unless it's to the really silly stuff. And even then it's forced and unnatural. To put it bluntly, you're making up excuses and character aspects that don't exist.

Quote:

Also there is more to Wizard than the White Wizard and you're just being facetious now, so I feel no reason to debate that at all.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

I didn't realise I'd need to disclaimer this every time but as people are clearly very forgetful *out of the shows I have seen. Not every Rider series since the dawn of mankind.

Maybe there are all these other shows that do Haruto better but so far I've come across a lot more goofs than I have characters of any substance or depth and that is why I find both Haruto and Eiji so enjoyable.

Well, that doesn't help your point, since you've only seen like, what, four? five?

It also doesn't help that you never mention which series you've seen. And the way you talk you basically imply you've seen, like, the entire Heisei era when you list off, like, four riders and then say "much, much more."

And the thing is, you mention you've seen more "goofs" then Haruto and Eiji, which basically means you're callign Gentaro, Shotaro, Ryoutaro and Godai "goofs." Can't speak for Godai and I'll give you Gen, but no way in any sensible hell are Shotaro and Ryoutaro "goofs." Again, do yourself a MASSIVE favoure and at least check out the W portion of the W and Decade movie so you can finally at least get a hint of what's to immediately come in W. You could not have picked a worse time to bail on that show. Ryoutaro is far from a goof. Even when he's meek and timid he's not a goof. He's got terrible luck and is the butt end of slapstick, but he himself is not goofy, just terribly unfortunate,