[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

FFFFFFFFFFF-

Well, Rook got his memory back, killed a bunch of people and Kivat is all "Oh what, you worrying about stuff again?"

YOU MEAN LIKE HOW ALL THOSE INNOCENT NICE PEOPLE WHO YOU KNEW DIED HORRIBLE DEATHS YEAH JUST A BIT BRO.

The complete inhumanity and disregard for the well-being of their fellow man is just palpable in Rider shows. It's almost revolting. These are the HEROES? Jeez I'm not expecting him to bust into tears, but he seems so... unconcerned.

Like, I once saw someone (on a different site) ask why Kouta got so upset when Hase died, evidently forgetting that's the normal human reaction to death. Riders pre-neo-heisei are so inhuman. So selfish. So... horrible.

Kiva's not even the worst of the bunch. Even Den-O was a little to apathetic toward civilian casualties at times. "What's my point of fighting" you mean besides saving lives?

Granted so many Riders are so downright awful at that it'd make sense if that wasn't their goal. Just once I'd like to see a Rider transform to save someone from a fire, or stop a runaway bus, or help someone in need. Where is it written you can't use the powers for anything beside monster fighting? W is my favourite rider because he has, multiple times, saved people with his powers. Stopped falling debris, move them out of the way of danger, stuff like that. Hell, even Kouta once tried to use his belt to save a kid from a tree. He didn't, but he tried.

It's more of a Toshiki Inoue thing than an era thing, really. Inoue is the writer whose heroes consistently skip the first two to three monster attacks before doing anything. Agito and Kiva, in particular, are the shows where the monster radar seems to only go off occasionally.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

I've often found that an odd dichotomy of Rider shows, often including protagonists who spout and ramble about truth and justice, and yet rarely do we see them uphold either ideals.

It makes the world feel so very small, that the Riders usually have so much free time on their hands and only spring into action to fight a monster once it has already killed a bunch of people. As much as you can complain Superman is ridiculous, he can reply that he's provided aid in three different countries, for six different natural disasters just this morning.

Rider features one city, usually a single victim and a single fight. I know it never claims to be more, but the fact we have riders like Kotaro who saves people and is constantly actively seeking his enemies to try and destroy them long term, not just stop them in the mean time, only makes it more insulting when you have passive time wasters like Kuuga.

Basically.

People are dying, and Wataru is worried about varnish. I'm not so unfair as to say they can't have a personal life at all, but BE a hero. SAVE someone instead of AVENGING them.

[KyoryuGreen]

Agito 32-Well great to see Ryou back, and Mana's powers are really extreme to do that. I love the interactions between Uncle, Taichi, Hikawa, and Shouichi trying to talk to Mana that was fun. Love the emotions from Ozawa when she talked to Hikawa about how teenage girls are. More intriguing stuff but can't wait to see more with Ryou, Shouichi and Hikawa and everyone next episode.

[SideswipePrime]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suzu

The fear! THE PAIN! Dikeido no~o Kuuga!

Decade-Kuuga just tends to forget he is a rider in the first place, so it's hard to see him as a secondary xD

Yeah, and it really sucks that he does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

He's gonna have to. So far he is a concentrated vile of pure shit writing. Kiva feels like it's trying REALLY hard to be like older series like Agito or Kuuga, which means it's trying REALLY hard to be utterly awful.

ANYWHO: So Kiva made a friend in the rock guy, but is now approached by a talent scout, and has to choose between his friend and making it big.

Ummm... didn't there used to be some kind of armoured vampire in this show?

EDIT: Is that talent scout Alternative Zero from Ryuki?

EDIT2: Wow, Otoya literally just stood by as Jirou killed and consumed a woman, and didn't even act horrified or upset in any way. He actually seemed vindicated and cocksure now that he had witnessed Jirou feed as a monster.

Otoya officially confirmed for scum of the Earth human being. What utter trash. Who exactly is the monster, here?

I forgot Otoya did that...dang.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Jirou is easily the most intriguing part of this show. He's a monster and his motives are selfish, but he's strangely relatable and kind. He wants to use Yuri to repopulate his race, but he's also genuinely nice and caring towards her at times. He doesn't need to destow wisdom or appreciate her to get what he wants, but he does.

He actually kind of seems to like her for her. Verses Otoya who a few episodes ago ran away because he didn't like Yuri for who she was.

Yeah, Jirou is awesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Basically.

People are dying, and Wataru is worried about varnish. I'm not so unfair as to say they can't have a personal life at all, but BE a hero. SAVE someone instead of AVENGING them.

That's a good point, but sometimes Riders don't show up until the monster has already done damage (as it takes time to get to wherever the monster is). I saw the Superman comparison, and it's, from a powers standpoint, apples and oranges. Back to the whole saving thing...if a Rider saves everyone, but then need to avenge the one person who died. I feel it would give that death more of an impact as well.

[KyoryuGreen]

Agito 33-More plot twists, great to have a general idea what happened on the Akatsuki-Gou with Shouichi and this Unknown that looks like male version of Mezool from OOO. Great to see that Hikawa and Shouichi both finally learn that Ryou is Gills, and that Ryou learns that Shouichi is Agito. Looks like True Tsugami is actually trying to stop the mysterious guy controlling the Unknowns good to see that I can feel he is somewhat good. Also I love Hikawa's love of Agito and how passionate he is about it, it reminds me of Flash Thompson and how he loves Spider-Man. I can totally relate to Shouichi to just try and focus on something else when you're afraid of something. Can't wait for Burning Form next episode =)

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SideswipePrime

That's a good point, but sometimes Riders don't show up until the monster has already done damage (as it takes time to get to wherever the monster is). I saw the Superman comparison, and it's, from a powers standpoint, apples and oranges. Back to the whole saving thing...if a Rider saves everyone, but then need to avenge the one person who died. I feel it would give that death more of an impact as well.

But it isn't apples and oranges. They are both superhero shows 'Superhero Time!' yet I can count on one hand the times that Riders have been actual superheroes. They let people die, get mad people die and then hunt down the monster. What do they do while the monster is killing people? Drink milk? Play the piano? Go to school?

A big part of American Superhero comics is their real lives are constantly at risk, because they are always out there fighting crime. They don't just deal with the guy who can throw buildings, they protect people from muggers, or stop bank robberies or anything. Quite often they are forced to put real lives on hold, just to save people they've never even met before, they sacrifice selflessly for the greater good. HEROES.

We never see Rider's do these things. Maybe it adds more power to the punch when they are avenging, not saving, but the punch is lost when they are avenging EVERYONE because of their own lack of initiative. It's more a hero complex, than actual heroics.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Quite often they are forced to put real lives on hold, just to save people they've never even met before, they sacrifice selflessly for the greater good. HEROES.

We never see Rider's do these things. Maybe it adds more power to the punch when they are avenging, not saving, but the punch is lost when they are avenging EVERYONE because of their own lack of initiative. It's more a hero complex, than actual heroics.

This is a really interesting observation. I've been tossing it around in my head for a bit, and I think I've come up with a few good reasons why these differences occur...

This is more a thought exercise inspired by the above than a rebuttal or argument, so it's kind of scatter shot. Forgive any rambling or incoherence.


PART ONE:

I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that a Rider series tends to document a flawed character who becomes a hero over the course of a 45-50 episode journey. A Rider usually starts out with a defining flaw that he learns to overcome over the course of a series, and very often, he isn't presented as a true, complete hero until the end. In a sense, we're watching a 25-hour super hero origin story.

Meanwhile, American superhero series tend to document the ongoing adventures of an established character who has proven his heroism countless times. He may still have flaws, but since he proved himself a "true hero" long ago, every one of his stories is designed to explore or reinforce his heroic status quo. The exception, of course, is an American super hero's origin story -- which tends to present him as green, inexperienced, and prone to mistakes, which is pretty similar to how a Kamen Rider is presented over the course of his series.

Since Rider series have a finite amount of time to tell their stories, and the major story is about how the rider overcomes his flaw to become a true hero, we don't see much of the actual super hero phase of his life. I predict that if a Kamen Rider series were to extend beyond its natural 45-50 episode lifespan, we'd see a lot more American-style super heroics from them.


PART TWO:

I'd also like to present the notion that, despite the Superhero Time branding, most Kamen Riders are Chosen Ones as opposed to superheroes.

Kamen Riders tend to be called upon by fate to embark upon a specific mission. That mission typically involves saving the world from a specific threat (SHOCKER, Fangires, GAIA Memories, Zodiarts, Mirror Monsters, Invess/Helheim, etc...). They're not as concerned with protecting the populace as they are with defeating their fated enemy. It's more of a macro view of heroism (defeat an enemy so the whole world is safe), as opposed to the micro-view enacted by Spider-Man and Batman (protect people on an individual level by solving crimes, fighting the mob, stopping muggers, etc).

To illustrate my point, a Kamen Rider is more like Buffy the Vampire Slayer than he is like Superman. Buffy goes on patrol and sacrifices a lot of her life, but only in regard to a specific threat: supernatural creatures. You don't see her going around stopping muggings or bank robberies because her calling is to defeat things like The Master and The First Evil. Similarly, you won't see Frodo tackle organized crime in The Shire -- because his fated enemy is Sauron.

Kamen Rider doesn't take on muggers or petty street crime because his goal is to defeat his Fated Enemy. He has bigger fish to fry, as it were.

Which brings me to...


PART THREE:

Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

Based on what I know of their culture, I don't think Japanese (in general, of course, not universally) are as interested in that popular philosophical question as Westerners are. It seems like, to the Japanese, the answer is a given: Yes, the needs of the many certainly outweigh the needs of the few. (See: wartime kamikaze tactics, et. al.)

Because of that cultural philosophy, I think Kamen Rider series treat collateral damage much more casually than Western super heroe stories do. Sure, a Rider is often torn up over his failure to help a given victim -- but as long as he defeats his fated enemy in the end, he's won. He's saved billions, so the death of that one (or 20, or 48, or 500) innocent bystander is cosmically balanced.


So yeah. I think this is an interesting topic. I hope any of what I wrote makes sense to anyone outside my head. Haha

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

PART ONE:

*snip* In a sense, we're watching a 25-hour super hero origin story *snip*

A solid argument, but then it only makes me question, 'why do it like that?'. Is there any reason the WHOLE show needs to deal with their origins? I think it'd suit the genre so much better, to have them start as an experience hero and then flashback to how they became what they are.

This is the reason I will argue to the cows come home, that Haruto was a FANTASTIC superhero. He actively hunted down the Phantoms, he started at a point of experience and cared about the individual and attempted to save them. Yes they needed a new Phantom every week to adhere to the genre trappings, so it undermined the point a bit, but I'd rather another Haruto or another Kotaro or another bonified hero, than another Godai going on about smiles while hundreds of people committed suicide as he cooked a fucking curry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

PART THREE:

*snip* Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? *snip*

The cultural differences are interesting, aren't they? This for me is the most problematic aspect. Because, one the one hand, it feels like Japanese culture is copping out but on another, America makes the battle of good and evil feel so hopeless, it's pointless to try.

I guess at least when Japan personifies evil as a single monster, and suggests that all the evil on the entire planet, an be destroyed in a single warehouse by defeating this single monster, it makes the battle of good evil feel that much more tangible, and defeating evil seems like a goal you can actually achieve.

But I think the American way of depicting the war as a sprawling mass, where one battle is just the part of many, may ultimately make the whole affair seem hopeless and unwinable, but the sense of scale also makes it that much more epic and grandiose.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

A solid argument, but then it only makes me question, 'why do it like that?'. Is there any reason the WHOLE show needs to deal with their origins? I think it'd suit the genre so much better, to have them start as an experience hero and then flashback to how they became what they are. *snip*

I think the magic of Kamen Rider (and Super Sentai) is that each year the producers really are willing to try very new things. So I think an approach like you describe is possible. I know I'd be interested.

But as with any medium/genre, especially one that involves such a quick turnaround time as Rider, the cliches and tropes can be very alluring. They provide quick and easy narrative tricks to get you out of sticky writing situations -- something invaluable when you're on a tight deadline. Even good writers sometimes fall victim to the siren song of easy solutions to complex problems.

On top of that, I think a lot of the repetition/cliche propagation comes from the same people being hired to write these shows year after year. When we get fresh talent like Gen Urobuchi and Kazuki Nakashima spearheading a show, we get much more unique and interesting results. They're able to eschew the cliches (or freshen them up when they do use them) because they bring new perspectives to the franchise. They haven't been buried in the Toku trenches for a decade or more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

The cultural differences are interesting, aren't they? This for me is the most problematic aspect. Because, one the one hand, it feels like Japanese culture is copping out but on another, America makes the battle of good and evil feel so hopeless, it's pointless to try.

Definitely interesting. Lots to unpack there. Someone could write an amazing thesis about Japan and America by comparing their approaches to heroism.

[Ruinnatn]

Hey guys, I just signed up here, I've been a member of TFW for a long time but recently started watching Kamen Rider Gaim with my 4 kids and am completely in love with it. I actually watched a review from Vangelus for the arms change AC-01 and started curiously searching the show out to see how dumb it was, little did I know the vortex of awesome I was about to be swept up in. I've watched all 14? Episodes so far and was wondering if you guys could give me suggestions of what series I could watch in between new episodes of Gaim? I also wanted you guys to know my kids are running around the house right now pretending to be the characters of the show(I've been deemed Bravo because they wanna beat me up haha), and also how hard it is to explain the premise of this show without it sounding like the dumbest thing ever. I've approached three friends of mine about it and they just give me vacant stares and a dismissive "that sounds cool I guess". Anyway happy to be a part of this community! Thanks!