[algo448]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

And with 23 episodes left, why would you think that will ever remain the ONLY plan?

I never said that, Kouta and gang will find another solution, hopefully in time, I'm just talking about the present, where the company that has spent years studying and fighting the Inves wasn't able to come up with anything better.

[ComicGuy89]

Quote:

Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX

I'm in the boat of siding with Yggdrasil as well. They have a plan and though incredibly evil and damn near monstrous, they have a plan that does make sense. Kouta's plan? Well his plan is just fight as per usual. Regardless if they're lying or not, I'd rather be on the team of a people with a concrete plan, then on the team of somebody who keeps changing his thoughts and ideas every other week.

Kouta doesn't change his ideals every week. They remain the same, and he evaluates Yggdrasil based on what has been revealed to him. While he may change his plans frequently, that's because Yggdrasil takes time to reveal things to him. He's not flip-floppy with his principles.

I guess what it all comes down to is whether you think ends justify the means, and I'm on the side that says it isn't worth buying the lives of 1 billion people over 6 billion. I think Project Ark is a good idea, but I don't think their planned genocide is.

So place me firmly on Kouta's side.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX

I'm in the boat of siding with Yggdrasil as well. They have a plan and though incredibly evil and damn near monstrous, they have a plan that does make sense. Kouta's plan? Well his plan is just fight as per usual. Regardless if they're lying or not, I'd rather be on the team of a people with a concrete plan, then on the team of somebody who keeps changing his thoughts and ideas every other week.

Exactly. I love Kouta as a character, but in a story like this fighting for the sake of vague idealism is pretty darn useless. He has no real goal, or no real grasp of the wider picture. We obviously know he'll save the day in the end, but it spoils the fun for everyone if we accept that and have no fun along the way.

So as we stand, I'm gonna stand with Yggadrasill, and their logical but totally cruel plan, sorry guys.

[Galvantula]

Getting back to Micchy I'm shocked no one remembers that they are fates worse than death. Keep in mind that people like Dragon Mystery tend to have ironic fates befall them at some point, namely during the endgame.

I'll wait until we have more info before picking a side. As someone who nearly went mad learning about Type MOON lore it pays to get more intell before settling on a viewpoint.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by algo448

I never said that...

No, you said that you'd side with Yggdrasil because they have the best plan.

For now.

That's a very short-term idea. It seems like "what's best" doesn't factor. You just want to be on the winning team at all times, not the team who's won.


You just want to pick the opposite side because it's not the "typical." Rather than do what's right, you want to just make a statement. I mean, if Takatora pushed that button this ep, even though we know one day Gaim will win, Yggdrasil would've seemed really fucking stupid, wouldn't they?

[ComicGuy89]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Exactly. I love Kouta as a character, but in a story like this fighting for the sake of vague idealism is pretty darn useless. He has no real goal, or no real grasp of the wider picture. We obviously know he'll save the day in the end, but it spoils the fun for everyone if we accept that and have no fun along the way.

So as we stand, I'm gonna stand with Yggadrasill, and their logical but totally cruel plan, sorry guys.

My opinion is that Urobuchi is actually making a statement of hope against crushing torrents of despair. Although this goes beyond just impassioned logic and into more philosophical or even religious debate.

[algo448]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

No, you said that you'd side with Yggdrasil because they have the best plan.

For now.

That's a very short-term idea. It seems like "what's best" doesn't factor. You just want to be on the winning team at all times, not the team who's won.

I know Kouta will come up with something but realistically Yggdrasil should be able to come up with a better plan than a regualr civilian with only a few weeks of experience with the Inves and Hellheim.

I don't care about the winning team, Kouta will win, I just find their plan more reliable than continue to fight withouth the slightest idea if there's any way to solve it.

[XW1n5t0nX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Exactly. I love Kouta as a character, but in a story like this fighting for the sake of vague idealism is pretty darn useless. He has no real goal, or no real grasp of the wider picture. We obviously know he'll save the day in the end, but it spoils the fun for everyone if we accept that and have no fun along the way.

So as we stand, I'm gonna stand with Yggadrasill, and their logical but totally cruel plan, sorry guys.

Exactly. I mean let's think about it, Kouta got his Sengoku Driver by chance, and became a Rider to help fuel his and his friends' own gain. Now he fights for what exactly? Against Yggadrasill? Sort of. He just argues with them mostly. He isn't fighting to stop them, or even inform people about what's actually going on. He just stands there with a thumb up his ass going "Durrr Yggadrasill is bad cause they lied, gave us a game for research, and came up with a plan to stop our world be destroyed." Is genocide a good thing? No it isn't. But it's better then walking around acting all sour because adult businessmen are acting like adult businessmen who have though about every option possible, and while the end result isn't ideal, it's better then nothing.

[MrHerofan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

And with 23 episodes left, why would you think that will ever remain the ONLY plan?

Spoiler alert guys: They WON'T blow up the city and kill everyone in it. Sorry, but you know that's not gonna happen, yet obviously they're gonna beat helheim somehow. So, yeah, gonna side with "logic" over "kill everyone because HOW DARE YOU EVER CONSIDER AN ALTERNATIVE!"

Hey at the beginning we didn't even know about project ark, or Helhiem or all of that, now as for DJ Shagara's who will Helhiem choose, could be the next arc/movie. And Zawame might blow up, who knows? Nobody this show is unpredictable.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComicGuy89

My opinion is that Urobuchi is actually making a statement of hope against crushing torrents of despair. Although this goes beyond just impassioned logic and into more philosophical or even religious debate.

And there is nothing wrong with this, but the Butcher seems to be trying (at least by toku standards) to make this feel like a real world, with fleshed living people in it. There is no clear good or bad, everyone has their own personal interests and everyone still has at least one more card on the table to play.

That is why I refuse to write off Yggadrasill as purely evil, we know in this show it isn't that simple. And similarly Kouta is a man to rally behind, but the show itself points out the naivety of his character and also the pitfalls of such idealism.

Although we may personally decide who are heroes, and who aren't, I think the show has struck a surprisingly complex balance of only condemning one side as much as the other. That is what I love about this show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX

Exactly. I mean let's think about it, Kouta got his Sengoku Driver by chance, and became a Rider to help fuel his and his friends' own gain. Now he fights for what exactly? Against Yggadrasill? Sort of. He just argues with them mostly. He isn't fighting to stop them, or even inform people about what's actually going on. He just stands there with a thumb up his ass going "Durrr Yggadrasill is bad cause they lied, gave us a game for research, and came up with a plan to stop our world be destroyed." Is genocide a good thing? No it isn't. But it's better then walking around acting all sour because adult businessmen are acting like adult businessmen who have though about every option possible, and while the end result isn't ideal, it's better then nothing.

And he always goes in half cocked, too, never forget that. His battle is entirely reactionary, and he's fighting against an organisation that has all the facts, even if the audience may not. Your breakdown of his characterisation has hit the nail on the head, and minus fighting with the Energy Riders, what else has he actually done to try and tackle them? It isn't like he's creating a revolution. Because he believes that people are better off not knowing? Then he's no different from his enemy...