[XW1n5t0nX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Is it better than fucking Kuuga?

I consider it to be the best Rider show. So yes, it is good.

Quote:

Kuuga isn't that dark, actually. I mean, yeah, there is lots of death, but it's just statistics. A news reporter will go "Unidentified Lifeform 30 has killed 129 people today." And that's it. We don't see how destructive they are. We're just told how many people they kill from a reporter or police radio (Sometimes we'll see them get one or two kills, but even then, it's not that violent).

This can also come down to that violence isn't automatically dark. What makes a violent act so disturbing or dark is usually the means behind it. Now true murder is disturbing, but in the context of a story, sometimes it is the reaction or reasoning that makes it so much more graphic and dark. Truthfully there never is anything that I can remember in Kuuga being "dark" outside of maybe Godai's beatdown on the Grongi in front of everybody.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Is it better than fucking Kuuga?

Honestly? I don't think so. And I actually slogged pretty far into Agito, got to like 47 or something.

Agito is one mystery painfully, unforgivingly, and needlessly stretched out over like 50 episodes. And unlike a good mystery, there's hardly any clues along the way. At least none that the audience can put together. It has so, so little substance. Episodes at a time will pass without anything actually happening.

And Souichi was a fucking horrid protagonist.

Quote:

Kuuga isn't that dark, actually. I mean, yeah, there is lots of death, but it's just statistics. A news reporter will go "Unidentified Lifeform 30 has killed 129 people today." And that's it. We don't see how destructive they are. We're just told how many people they kill from a reporter or police radio (Sometimes we'll see them get one or two kills, but even then, it's not that violent).

I'm honestly baffled to Kuuga's overwhelming approval...

Because it was that exact flavour of "dark" and "mature" the internet needed back when it came out. Think about it, it was liek 2000/2001, right? The internet was just expanding, subbed anime and tokau was just managing to be shared effectively, and American audiences were treated to a more "mature" version of their childhood shows. Kamen Rider was like Power Rangers except it had people die, it was less overtly gimmicky and colourful and far less campy. Much like those who believe the Japanese dubs of the UT are somehow far and away these great improvements over their American counterparts, Kamen Rider and Sentai were way more "advanced" than the weastern alternatives.

At least that's how I see it. And I mean, I was totally part of this mentality. I wasn't into Riders or Transformers (as much), but I was more than aware of how things were. It was like back then if it wasn't subtitled, it was "for kids." Meanwhile, a show like Gaim that is outwardly colourful, energetic and "kiddy" ends up far more sinister and mature as it reveals it's darker machinations. Yet Kuuga is supposedly "darker" because it has, like you said, a statistical lead in the death count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX

I consider it to be the best Rider show. So yes, it is good.

There is so much wrong with the structure of this statement alone.

[IXRollOutIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Is it better than fucking Kuuga?

Yes. I personally find Agito extremely overrated. But yes, personally, I think it's better than Kuuga overall. The ending is just as disappointing, though...

That feel when you realize the first Heisei series to have a decent ending is Blade...

[TheTakoTank]

Kuuga fanclub unite! Spoilers, obv.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

I think you were supposed to be uncertain if Yusuke lived or died in the final fight. I'm not sure if it really worked like that for contemporary audiences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Actually, that's wrong. Very early on in the episode, characters are saying stuff like "I wish Godai didn't go on an adventure so soon. I wonder when we'll see him again." So they make it quite clear that Yusuke is alive, he just left quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan

I also get what they were doing with the final episode, but again it doesn't really do much for me. I think I would have appreciated the last episode a lot, had they shown at the end that Godai died to defeat Daguva, but I understand why they didn't go that route.

I think it could be interpreted that Godai did die and Ichijou is lied to everyone that he's alive to protect their smiles. At the very least I think that would have been an interesting way to end it.

Also, Hibiki's pretty good. I'm almost done with it; I don't think the second half is as bad as people say, but there are problems with it. I'll be doing an overall review when I finish the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

*snip*

All valid criticisms of the show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

The action was lacking, being very subdued. Some would say that's not a bad thing. And it's not. The first 20 times. The remaining 30 made fight scenes just dull and time consuming. The bike scenes were nice, but those don't save a series.

I think the action was fine, even by today's standards, but you just need to remember that it's an old show. One of the things I like is that the bike is actually used a lot. Many other shows don't feel like they put the "rider" in Kamen Rider. The sequence when he kills the grasshopper grongi is one of my favorite scenes in the show.

Quote:

And that climax. Oh, that climax. Punching each other on a snowy mountain. Then cut to Ichijou, then cut to them in their human forms, still just punching each other. Then they fall down. That was the most anti climactic fight I've seen and it was so angering that the only reason why I watched the final episode immediately afterwards was so I could just get it over with.

I actually really liked that fight, really helped show that maybe Godai has become the monster. Not because he wants to, but because he has too. But that final battle is way better than Agito's. (Spoiler alert: because Agito didn't even have one)

Quote:

I really wanted to like Kuuga, I really did. While I'm forgiving to a lot, it's attempts at trying something different led to such a boring experience that was only enjoyable because Ichijou was written well.

I think I like Kuuga because it's different, and I think it does it well, similarly to how Hibiki is also very different and very good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Godai never felt like a growing character. The brief moments he did (Like his violent outburst against the porcupine Grongi) were removed by the next episode ("I don't want to be like that anymore, so I'mma smile." "Kay." and instantly resolved). He's not bad, and he's very likable, but he was just rather static.

I think most of Godai's character is implied rather than shown, although it is hinted at. It feels like he learns how destructive Kuuga can be, as well as the pain the Grongi are causing, and he needs to learn to live with this power and control it. Much better imo than, say, Agito.

Quote:

I've yet to see Agito, all of Faiz (15 episodes in. New record!), or Hibiki)

If you're going to watch Agito, I feel that only the episodes from 30-46 are really worth watching. Hibiki's good, but I think it is kind of a slow burn like Kuuga. Very different from your standard fare, that's for sure. I'm actually planning to watch Faiz after I finish Hibiki. (~4 episodes left)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

That ending pissed me off so much that I can't even give the series as a whole an analysis.
Fuck that show.

See also: My opinion of Agito. (although not quite as harsh)

[SPLIT LIP]

It's hard for Rider shows to have decent endings, I feel. In order for an ending to be good, it has to fall into place naturally. But when you have a mandate of when a series has to end, and a dysmally short schedule to get it done, it's really hard for that to happens. It either happens to soon and you have to pad out the events, or it happens to late and shit has to be crammed in. And even if it ends well, there may still be something that ruins it. (either and extra twelve minutes like in Ryuki, or aan extra episode like in W)

Also, I'm glad to see I'm not totally alone in the "Agito is over-rated" club.

[TheTakoTank]

(Sorry for double posting, I just have a lot to say about Kuuga)

Quote:

Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX

Agito, because it is fucking Agito.

You wanna fight? Cause that's how you start a fight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

I feel like a lot of it's popularity comes from it being "oh so dark and horror-violent" like Agito.

I didn't get that vibe from either show, except for maybe a couple instances where the monsters kill people in interesting ways. Never heard anyone recommend either show based on that; in fact I don't see people really recommending them at all. Honestly I don't think any series (that I've seen) has gotten into the dark/violent territory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Is it better than fucking Kuuga?

In my opinion, no, but I get the feeling we don't really have similar tastes.

Quote:

Kuuga isn't that dark, actually. I mean, yeah, there is lots of death, but it's just statistics. A news reporter will go "Unidentified Lifeform 30 has killed 129 people today." And that's it. We don't see how destructive they are. We're just told how many people they kill from a reporter or police radio (Sometimes we'll see them get one or two kills, but even then, it's not that violent).

I'm honestly baffled to Kuuga's overwhelming approval...

Well, if we're going by statistics, then Kuuga contains over 2000 confirmed deaths. Agreed on the violence part.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Agito is one mystery painfully, unforgivingly, and needlessly stretched out over like 50 episodes. And unlike a good mystery, there's hardly any clues along the way. At least none that the audience can put together. It has so, so little substance. Episodes at a time will pass without anything actually happening.

You mean the 20 episodes in the middle where absolutely nothing plot related happens at all? In the same show where characters just disappear for episodes at a time? I didn't know this show was popular, and I don't understand it, but YMMV.

Agito's only real saving grace are the characters (Namely Gills, G3, and Another Agito), and the 15 or so episodes I mentioned earlier. The designs are very nice, though.

[XW1n5t0nX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

You wanna fight? Cause that's how you start a fight.

You wanna throw down brah?

Quote:

I didn't get that vibe from either show, except for maybe a couple instances where the monsters kill people in interesting ways. Never heard anyone recommend either show based on that; in fact I don't see people really recommending them at all. Honestly I don't think any series (that I've seen) has gotten into the dark/violent territory.

Agreed. I don't even get a horror vibe from Kuuga, and I'm Mr. Horror. Probably the closest I've seen in terms of the dark/violent area is probably Ryuki.

[SPLIT LIP]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

You mean the 20 episodes in the middle where absolutely nothing plot related happens at all? In the same show where characters just disappear for episodes at a time? I didn't know this show was popular, and I don't understand it, but YMMV.

You have no idea how refreshing it is to see this written by someone who isn't me.

Quote:

The designs are very nice, though.

The designs are pretty slick.

[IXRollOutIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

It's hard for Rider shows to have decent endings, I feel. In order for an ending to be good, it has to fall into place naturally. But when you have a mandate of when a series has to end, and a dysmally short schedule to get it done, it's really hard for that to happens. It either happens to soon and you have to pad out the events, or it happens to late and shit has to be crammed in. And even if it ends well, there may still be something that ruins it. (either and extra twelve minutes like in Ryuki, or aan extra episode like in W)

I consider it like this. Feel free to disagree with me completely:

Good endings: Blade, W, OOO, Gaim.
Okay endings: Den-O, Kiva, Fourze, Wizard.
Bad endings: Kuuga, Agito, Ryuki, Faiz, Hibiki, Kabuto, Decade.

I'm one of the people who liked the final episodes of Kiva and Double, so shoot me.

[Matrixbeast]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Honestly? I don't think so. And I actually slogged pretty far into Agito, got to like 47 or something.

Agito is one mystery painfully, unforgivingly, and needlessly stretched out over like 50 episodes. And unlike a good mystery, there's hardly any clues along the way. At least none that the audience can put together. It has so, so little substance. Episodes at a time will pass without anything actually happening.

And Souichi was a fucking horrid protagonist.

That's disheartening to hear. Bad mysteries can be a huge detriment because the audience is left sitting there until the show just tells us what is going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Because it was that exact flavour of "dark" and "mature" the internet needed back when it came out. Think about it, it was liek 2000/2001, right? The internet was just expanding, subbed anime and tokau was just managing to be shared effectively, and American audiences were treated to a more "mature" version of their childhood shows. Kamen Rider was like Power Rangers except it had people die, it was less overtly gimmicky and colourful and far less campy. Much like those who believe the Japanese dubs of the UT are somehow far and away these great improvements over their American counterparts, Kamen Rider and Sentai were way more "advanced" than the weastern alternatives.

At least that's how I see it. And I mean, I was totally part of this mentality. I wasn't into Riders or Transformers (as much), but I was more than aware of how things were. It was like back then if it wasn't subtitled, it was "for kids." Meanwhile, a show like Gaim that is outwardly colourful, energetic and "kiddy" ends up far more sinister and mature as it reveals it's darker machinations. Yet Kuuga is supposedly "darker" because it has, like you said, a statistical lead in the death count.

Kuuga is a little weird in this regard. You can see hints towards a more mature story, but Godai is this constantly bubbly and upbeat guy that he makes sure a scene is lighthearted.
Yes, facade and all that, but until the finale, we never get to see his inner feelings (Until the complete beatdown on the Porcupine Grongi), so it doesn't really change much.
I guess since the Grongi rack up high death counts, it's counted as dark in the eyes of others, though...

However, I will give Kuuga this over other "Dark" series, both Toku and Anime alike. It isn't pretentious. It isn't filled with pseudo symbolism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IXRollOutIX

Yes. I personally find Agito extremely overrated. But yes, personally, I think it's better than Kuuga overall. The ending is just as disappointing, though...

That feel when you realize the first Heisei series to have a decent ending is Blade...

Better than Kuuga? That's a step in the right direction, at least...

And that is terrifying to hear. I really don't want to sit through a second crappy anti-climax.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

I think it could be interpreted that Godai did die and Ichijou is lied to everyone that he's alive to protect their smiles. At the very least I think that would have been an interesting way to end it.

But the series ends with Godai on a beach juggling for some arguing kids. So we know he's fine.
It would've been an interesting path to have him die, I'll agree, but that's not the ending we were given.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

Also, Hibiki's pretty good. I'm almost done with it; I don't think the second half is as bad as people say, but there are problems with it. I'll be doing an overall review when I finish the show.

Hibiki does seem to get near universal praise, but the problem is the apparent blasphemous second half, which is making me hesitant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

I think the action was fine, even by today's standards, but you just need to remember that it's an old show. One of the things I like is that the bike is actually used a lot. Many other shows don't feel like they put the "rider" in Kamen Rider. The sequence when he kills the grasshopper grongi is one of my favorite scenes in the show.

I know it's an older show, which is why I'm not super critical. But too many of the fights boil down to simple punches, maybe a little grapple, before the finishing rider kick.
Dragon form is just a slap to the chest with the rod. Very straight forward. Just a straight swing with the rod. When Titan form's strategy of "Walk forward and tank hits" becomes interesting just because it provides a sense of variety, you might want to reconsider a new choreographer.

The bike fights were fine, and were new and exciting to me since current series so rarely did them. But it was only done 3-4 times in the series, so it didn't offer enough flavor to save the fighting as a whole.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

I actually really liked that fight, really helped show that maybe Godai has become the monster. Not because he wants to, but because he has too. But that final battle is way better than Agito's. (Spoiler alert: because Agito didn't even have one)

That is one way to look at it, but it didn't really show it. Kuuga has always been primarily a fist fighter, so a bland fist fight doesn't convey him becoming a monster.
That and the fight scene was incredibly brief and mostly covered in a white filter on top of the heavy snowfall, making it difficult to even watch, anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

I think I like Kuuga because it's different, and I think it does it well, similarly to how Hibiki is also very different and very good.

I feel them trying to be different was a negative, but that's just me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheTakoTank

I think most of Godai's character is implied rather than shown, although it is hinted at. It feels like he learns how destructive Kuuga can be, as well as the pain the Grongi are causing, and he needs to learn to live with this power and control it. Much better imo than, say, Agito.

I really can't agree here. Godai learns the destructive force of Kuuga when he first achieves his rising forms, but beyond just taking fights to isolated areas, he doesn't seem to express concern over his growing power. We do get to see how he feels when he finally sees the pain the grongi are causing, but after that episode, he's back to his happy go lucky self. He really doesn't feel like a changed man. Same goes for the finale, when he resolves himself to use the black power (However, considering the following episode, it's hard to tell).
Even the doctor's final diagnosis of "His power is constantly growing" seems to have no effect on Godai, as he just thumbs up and leaves with a smile.