[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Honestly, I feel like you're being harsh on this episode?

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

You deemed Sawada an irredeemable character not long after his introduction so I was curious to see how you would react to having your expectations subverted.

I feel like it's not the idea behind the episode that I'm opposed to, it's the execution of it. Using Sawada's attempt at sacrifice as a way to tip Takumi back over into seeing himself as something less than a timebomb, I like that idea. If even the worst of them have some humanity, doesn't that allow Takumi to feel like he's able to be a good person?

It's just, I still feel like there's a part of the Mari/Sawada stuff that's missing, and it really taints his use in this story. I never, once, got a feeling like we saw Mari deal with being murdered. Because of that, her interactions with Sawada feel like they're drawn from a different series, one where he didn't murder her.

And, I guess the main thing is that, thematically, Sawada's story in this one is about how it impacts Takumi's story, but the minutiae is about Sawada's journey, Sawada's choices, Sawada's suffering, and... I don't have as much interest in that as maybe I'd need to? My interest is in Mari and Takumi, but the show is definitely asking me to consider what Sawada is going through.

Maybe that's my fault, and it's me being unfair. Maybe the show is telling a nuanced, empathetic story about Sawada and I'm just folding my arms, refusing to engage it on its own terms. I don't know. I hope not, and I'm sorry if I am.

[FreshToku]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

And, I guess the main thing is that, thematically, Sawada's story in this one is about how it impacts Takumi's story, but the minutiae is about Sawada's journey, Sawada's choices, Sawada's suffering, and... I don't have as much interest in that as maybe I'd need to? My interest is in Mari and Takumi, but the show is definitely asking me to consider what Sawada is going through.

You don't need to apologise for seeing something differently! Otherwise, I would have demanded an apology when you dissed Burning Form.

I basically had the same reaction myself though. The way the scenes are presented read to me like the emotional crux and focus was mainly on Sawada, since its only seconds after he dies when Takumi leaps back into action. For me personally, all it would take to make it work better is if right between Sawada's death and Takumi joining the fight was just a brief exchange where Mari goes 'i dont want that to happen to you too' and Takumi being like 'i wont', or even just Takumi giving a line in that spirit in response to Sawada's death. Yeah some subtlety would have been lost, but it would have put the focus in the right place right before moving to the final scene, I think.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

You don't need to apologise for seeing something differently! Otherwise, I would have demanded an apology when you dissed Burning Form.

I basically had the same reaction myself though. The way the scenes are presented read to me like the emotional crux and focus was mainly on Sawada, since its only seconds after he dies when Takumi leaps back into action. For me personally, all it would take to make it work better is if right between Sawada's death and Takumi joining the fight was just a brief exchange where Mari goes 'i dont want that to happen to you too' and Takumi being like 'i wont', or even just Takumi giving a line in that spirit in response to Sawada's death. Yeah some subtlety would have been lost, but it would have put the focus in the right place right before moving to the final scene, I think.

Some of it is also about how heroic it is to have sympathy for Sawada. Not that he deserves it, or has earned it, but that Mari and Takumi (Takumi specifically) trying to redeem him shows their character.

And, I get it if people think that that's brave of them, generous of them, but I just have a tough time applying it to someone like Sawada. Some people are suffering, and they need someone to try and help them. Sometimes, it's after they've done something horrible, something regrettable. But sometimes people show you who they are, and you need to believe them. Sawada spent a ton of time being absolutely merciless. I know that we're supposed to view his activities as the result of trauma, as the result of horrible events, but he still did them. And, man, he never really tried to atone for them. At the end, there's a kind of negation he attempts, ridding the world of Sawada, a monster. I do lament his outcome, the path his life ended up taking. But, man, he killed a ton of people.

I don't know. I think the construction of Sawada's character, and the use of him as the example of If Even He Can Find Some Good Within Himself... I just couldn't get to where the show need me to be in order to see Mari's and Takumi's decisions as reasonable.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

That's the thing about Mihara. He's always there, even if he is irrelevant.

Honestly, as probably one of the bigger Mihara fans out there, I'd argue this is backwards. It's more like he's always irrelevant, even if he's there.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Maybe that's my fault, and it's me being unfair. Maybe the show is telling a nuanced, empathetic story about Sawada and I'm just folding my arms, refusing to engage it on its own terms. I don't know. I hope not, and I'm sorry if I am.

Aw geez, I wasn't trying to make you feel like you have to apologize...

It's just... I don't know, I guess I just personally thought Sawada's plotline played out in a really clever and interesting way, especially with them planting that seed well before it becomes apparent it was kind of always commenting on Takumi's arc, and I really loved how it comes together in the end and leads into the completion of the holy trinity of quotable Takkun speeches. This is an episode I really like, so it's maybe disappointing to see you not feeling it so much yourself. I have a track record of buying into these villain "redemption" stories easier than I think you do, which is probably part of it, and I understand your point about Mari (although on the other hand, she does admit she understands now he's not the same person anymore when confronting him about the reunion in the previous episode, which I don't think is a minor moment), but...

Like I said, I don't know. I guess we'll always have Adel.

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Incredibly fun opening for a show!

This is Faiz' final form Blaster Form..... what do you expect for it handling the deadliest Orphnoch? For me I would think the suit is what I like less about the form though, with the suit is nothing but just the same. Faiz suit that is re-coloured red (it probably makes more sense though with Faiz being the most technological one between the Riders so far), unless that you're already such a fan of Faiz suit (which is sizable) that you wish to keep it like that. And if you're already considering this one as cool af.... you're missing out! Yeah... the Faiz Blaster actually debuted in Paradise Lost, and the one in this episode is nothing compared to that. The shoulder cannons are Bloody Cannons... and the one displayed in this episode has much more impact than it does in various videogames.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

That’s pretty much what I thought about, as Kitazaki lost his shit after narrowly escaping Faiz Blaster. He’s a bored combatant, slacking off during fights because he doesn’t feel challenged. But now, now that he was whipped so soundly, He’s Going To Try.

So Kitazaki's the type who wants to be entertained, but goes apeshit at struggles and losses. Now what does he want? Eh then again he's a teenager who is exactly that, doesn't know what he wants.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

This episode, though! I mean, if you can tell by how much of this episode I just spent talking about a North American wrestler, this episode didn’t really land for me.

I'm on board with you, as you've pointed out, Sawada still did them no matter what he has gone through. I got sick of people giving others (like various villainous characters) free pass because of bad backstory, pointing out "do you understand what they're going through?", and even treating them as not actually evil, just misunderstood or something because "they're only made that way due to that backstory", and of course ignoring everything bad they've done.

Though as others've explained, this serves as a drive for Takumi to gain some confidence in himself, and that actually works for him because how horrible Sawada has been lately. Takumi sees that even some of the worst kind of Orphnoch can have a sliver (a sliver, tiny!) of humanity left inside them, then Takumi shouldn't fear himself too much of going fully monstrous. Probably yeah with how his death scene played it expects to be a tragic loss for the cast with someone (formerly) close to him, Mari, standing and mourning besides him. But this episode has answered most of my confusion with him narrating what happened to every Ryusei School alumnis that they forgot what happened.

Speaking otherwise, the one I'm actually confused was not Mari being desperate to see Sawada redeemed, but in inverse, Takumi's hopes for Sawada, just because he's a friend of friend. Mari's desperation is more understandable that she sees him as a family like every Ryusei School alumnis (they're undoubtedly, the closest to each others), while not for Takumi who, you know, tried to distance himself from Ryusei School alumnis earlier.

Anyways, for "There’s ways I’m trying to talk myself into finding something positive, but I don’t love talking myself into liking something. I didn’t like this one, you guys.", what if something you don't like feels unfair to others, and that they want to talk about that in positive sense to correct that and gives more proper insight and understanding?

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Still, at least wasn’t as hilariously (hilariously) stupid as the Delta stuff with Mihara and Rina.

When Mihara's cowardice now actually is disastrous in this episode, to almost cost a dear friend's life. But yeah anyone can transform into Delta... but Delta has side effects. Some side effects include the user becoming mentally unstable and developing an addiction to using the Gear, as well as developing minor Orphnoch-like powers. Those with strong enough will or just dislike fighting in general, can use the Delta Gear without the mentioned side effects (Saya was able to use it properly but it may contributed to her illness).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

This show is in… oof. It ain’t in a great place. There’re things that work great (all the Mari and Takumi stuff sings, the Kaido/Yuka skit at the orphanage was funny), but the show keeps adding layers to the Ryusei School story that compare unfavorably in my mind to Agito (that Rina speech is 100% the Agito theme and is totally misplaced on this show), and it keeps backgrounding strong characters (Yuuji is a no-show, there’s the one Kaido/Yuka scene, remember when Keitaro had stories about him) to clutter up with a plot that doesn’t have an emotional weight to it.

I feel like I’m watching a great concert with a killer setlist, and then two-thirds of the way through the band’s like Hey Let’s Just Jam For The Rest Of The Night. It’s real frustrating to feel like the wheels are coming off of this thing, you guys!

How did Kaido get to volunteer for that orphanage anyway? Yuka obviously assists him. Also for Keitaro, soon you'll see in few next episodes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Some of it is also about how heroic it is to have sympathy for Sawada. Not that he deserves it, or has earned it, but that Mari and Takumi (Takumi specifically) trying to redeem him shows their character.

And, I get it if people think that that's brave of them, generous of them, but I just have a tough time applying it to someone like Sawada. Some people are suffering, and they need someone to try and help them. Sometimes, it's after they've done something horrible, something regrettable. But sometimes people show you who they are, and you need to believe them. Sawada spent a ton of time being absolutely merciless. I know that we're supposed to view his activities as the result of trauma, as the result of horrible events, but he still did them. And, man, he never really tried to atone for them. At the end, there's a kind of negation he attempts, ridding the world of Sawada, a monster. I do lament his outcome, the path his life ended up taking. But, man, he killed a ton of people.

I don't know. I think the construction of Sawada's character, and the use of him as the example of If Even He Can Find Some Good Within Himself... I just couldn't get to where the show need me to be in order to see Mari's and Takumi's decisions as reasonable.

The characters are generous to them, but doesn't mean the audience are expected to act the same because y'know, every people are different, either characters or real life person. The characters have different thoughts about that person because for example, strong bond Ryusei School students like Mari have with each other, but others wouldn't be exactly the same, like audience who are able to see things more objectively (or in inverse, tolerate them much more than you would irl) because of them being fictional characters. Though yeah with him having tragic death scene, it can certainly feel like that. But as I said I'm on board with you on this and everything's explained above.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Aw geez, I wasn't trying to make you feel like you have to apologize...

It's just... I don't know, I guess I just personally thought Sawada's plotline played out in a really clever and interesting way, especially with them planting that seed well before it becomes apparent it was kind of always commenting on Takumi's arc, and I really loved how it comes together in the end and leads into the completion of the holy trinity of quotable Takkun speeches. This is an episode I really like, so it's maybe disappointing to see you not feeling it so much yourself. I have a track record of buying into these villain "redemption" stories easier than I think you do, which is probably part of it, and I understand your point about Mari (although on the other hand, she does admit she understands now he's not the same person anymore when confronting him about the reunion in the previous episode, which I don't think is a minor moment), but...

Like I said, I don't know. I guess we'll always have Adel.

Hey, here's the one where I apologize for making people uncomfortable by apologizing before! I hope I didn't come off as offended or thin-skinned. I get that these episodes can mean a lot to people, and as I said on my first day on these boards, that last thing I ever want to do is be unfair about a show. I try to be open to what a show is trying to say, and judge it on its own merits, and I was concerned that I wasn't doing that. As always, it is very cool with me if folks don't agree with what I'm saying! That's fun to read and respond to!

I guess my final thoughts on Sawada are that I liked him as a villain, but I wasn't able to find the sympathy the show wanted me to discover at the end of his story. As a villain, his motivation is inherently tragic. He was killed by a monster, and became a monster to protect himself. His humanity previously made him weak, made him a victim, gave him something to lose, so he tried to shed all of that and crush his humanity through murder. That villainy, where it's a sick form of psychological self-preservation, I think that's got a lot of narrative juice.

But, yeah, I couldn't quite get his story to square up with what Takumi and Mari's stories were doing. I see everyone's points, and I'm genuinely glad that other folks got more out of it, but Sawada's villainy was just too intense for me to make that story work the way the show intended.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Speaking otherwise, the one I'm actually confused was not Mari being desperate to see Sawada redeemed, but in inverse, Takumi's hopes for Sawada, just because he's a friend of friend. Mari's desperation is more understandable that she sees him as a family like every Ryusei School alumnis (they're undoubtedly, the closest to each others), while not for Takumi who, you know, tried to distance himself from Ryusei School alumnis earlier.

Yeah, that's the part I struggled with. I can see the edges of what the show's going for (again, I think it's meant to be the bookend to Takumi's earlier hope that Sawada was good inside), and I think it happening just as Takumi's starting to think he might not have to be a monster is crucial, but it's definitely a story where I could see what they were trying to say without necessarily believing in it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Anyways, for "There’s ways I’m trying to talk myself into finding something positive, but I don’t love talking myself into liking something. I didn’t like this one, you guys.", what if something you don't like feels unfair to others, and that they want to talk about that in positive sense to correct that and gives more proper insight and understanding?

I mean, I definitely want to hear them out! If there's some detail I've overlooked or thematic link I've ignored, yeah, please, let me know.

That said, I'm not sure if my opinion of something is going to change due to that conversation. I definitely want to hear opinions that run counter to mine, but I'm not necessarily looking to be convinced. Honestly, I'm not trying to convince others, either? I don't look at these discussions as a way to prove a point or whatever. I like talking about what I got out of a piece of art, and I like hearing what other people got out of a piece of art. That's pretty much the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

How did Kaido get to volunteer for that orphanage anyway?

He's a local hero! Plus, I gotta assume even Smart Brain-sponsored orphanages are okay if two folks volunteer candy and toys for underprivileged children.

[Fish Sandwich]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I hope I didn’t come off as offended or thin-skinned.

No, no, it's pretty much the exact opposite. I'm so impressed by how open you are to the idea you might not be seeing a bigger picture it almost made me feel like a piece of s*** for even bothering to disagree in the first place. It's the Internet, right? Even though you've been at this for a while now, and I should really know better, I still sort of inherently expect negativity to be bull-headed and extreme. If you were in here going "sorry not sorry, Fish et al., but the Sawada plot is the WORST THING EVER, and you're all $@#@% for liking it. Also, I actually hate this show because it RUINED KAMEN RIDER FOREVER, even though I never liked Kamen Rider because it SUCKS AND IS OVERRATED", there's a part of me that wouldn't be surprised. It doesn't mean that's what I want! It's very admirable to be able to express opinions in a calm and collected manner!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

No, no, it's pretty much the exact opposite. I'm so impressed by how open you are to the idea you might not be seeing a bigger picture it almost made me feel like a piece of s*** for even bothering to disagree in the first place. It's the Internet, right? Even though you've been at this for a while now, and I should really know better, I still sort of inherently expect negativity to be bull-headed and extreme. If you were in here going "sorry not sorry, Fish et al., but the Sawada plot is the WORST THING EVER, and you're all $@#@% for liking it. Also, I actually hate this show because it RUINED KAMEN RIDER FOREVER, even though I never liked Kamen Rider because it SUCKS AND IS OVERRATED", there's a part of me that wouldn't be surprised. It doesn't mean that's what I want! It's very admirable to be able to express opinions in a calm and collected manner!

oh my god

you're takumi

you've taken all this negativity and thought "yep, sounds about right"

oh no

fish

fish sandwich

you're a victim here too

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER 555 EPISODE 41



--1--

I absolutely recognized that stunning head of hair: it's Truegami, the "real” Shouichi Tsugami from Agito!

I wonder how it feels to be someone who worked on Agito, someone who might currently be looking for work, and see another Agito dude get a role on Faiz. I mean, Houjou, sure, of course. I'm not sure why that guy stopped getting cast on Kamen Riders. But Truegami? If you're one of the Akatsuki-gou mutants, I wonder if you're feeling a little resentful.

--2--

Man, this episode was a blast. A hundred percent back to where I like Faiz as a show. The happiness feels earned, and the tragedy feels inevitable. Everything feels organic, consequential. It's no longer weird outside forces pulling people apart or drawing them together, it's all character logic and emotional dilemmas.

I mean, a Yuka spotlight episode? That reaffirms that she's killed a whole bunch of people? That digs into whether or not she's fooling herself by embracing a human life? Hell yes.

I'm really into the idea of Lucky Clover recruiting Yuka. It was teased a million years ago, but since then it's mostly been left alone. Here, she's a natural choice after losing Sawada and having Kitazaki on the shelf. She's powerful, subtle, and notoriously conflicted. With the right push, she's someone who could do a lot for Lucky Clover.

And that right push is probably a full-on tactical assault, I guess? Jesus, it's a million cops who swarm her outside the park. It definitely feels like the type of impossible situation that's going to activate Yuka's well-known Fight Or Flight Or Massacre response, and that makes for a suitably tense conclusion to the episode.

It's just, how do the cops know about Orphnochs all of a sudden? I'm not sure if this is a plotpoint (as I'm hoping) or a plothole (as I fear). Nothing's been public about Orphnochs, as far as I can recall. It could be that the cops have known more about all this than Soeno was privy to, so a special team of Orphnoch hunters could make sense. Or it could all be a Smart Brain ruse, making Yuka feel like Lucky Clover is the only way to protect herself. I hope we find out soon, ‘cause that was something that stuck out to me. Otherwise, I'm really excited to see where this all goes.

--3--

Overall, though, man, this was a very sweet epilogue to all of the last arc's misery. Like I said, the happiness amongst the cast is so earned. Takumi is coming home, and he's going to stay this time.

It's heartwarming, you know? Emotionally, seeing characters you love exist in a state of perpetual gloom is... I mean, I don't love that with the world being the way it is right now. It's grueling, to feel that way. So this, them all healed and happy, it's great. I mean, shit, the look on Yuuji's face when Takumi calls and asks him if he needs any laundry done! Or when Yuuji's all I Knew You Could Do It and Takumi's all Aw Shucks I'm Still Not As Good As You... like, the chemistry on display! (Mari is such a third-wheel in that scene!) Astonishing. TAKKIBA FOREVER!

And, like, a big thumbs up to reigniting the romantic hijinks of the Keitaro/Kaido/Yuka story. It's all so goofy, but it's something this show has proven pretty adept at juggling. Plus, I think it's a necessary counterbalance to all of the Orphnoch shit that Yuka has to go through later in the story. I like seeing her trying to get a boy to like her, while letting another boy know that she doesn't like him. (The way she calls Keitaro a child for not wanting to eat onions! Fantastic!) It grounds her character for me, makes her real in a way that gives so much more gravity to her world collapsing later. She's a complicated character, and I love that this episode gave her so much to do.

Just, seriously, such a sweetly entertaining episode. Very thankful for it.

--4--

Also, look, credit where it's due? Kusaka was completely on his asshole game this episode.

First, he gets an AOE Snark Attack in on both Takumi and Mihara to kick off the episode. In one bit of dialogue he sarcastically thanks Takumi for finally finding the resolve to fight while staring Mihara dead in the eyes, then tells Takumi that his resolve is irrelevant because he's still an Orphnoch and he'll eventually betray them. I mean, come on. How am I supposed to be mad at someone who's that great at running people down verbally?

And then, and then, when everyone's at the park? It's just the six original members of Team Faiz and Team Orphnoch enjoying each other's company, but as soon as Yuuji and Takumi start flirting, THERE'S KUSAKA, tagging along just to tell people they suck. It's.. perfect? It's the best deployment yet of Kusaka's very particular set of skills, which is being the worst person alive.

I'm not saying I've, like, forgiven him or anything, but holy shit he's so remarkably awful in this episode that I was dying.

--5--

Real top-flight episode. Everything felt like it was pulling in the same direction: the fun hangout stuff, the cop stuff, the Lucky Clover stuff... even the Mihara/Rina scene basked in the warmth of everything working out for a minute.

It's just, it is such a relief to not be worrying about this show anymore. I never know if an episode not working for me is an episode not working for me, or if it's the first episode not working for me. This one was great, though! It was using all the right muscles to tell a very Faiz story, and I dug it. I'm glad I didn't lose faith in their ability to tell stories I'd like!