[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I mean, she's not? I don't think there's anything in this scene worth being repulsed by, and I wouldn't say that's what the show is intending. At the risk of ruining a joke by taking it apart, the point seems to be that a professional who should be treating Tendou in a clinical, detached manner is, instead, looking to him for answers and falling for his charms. Like, the age of the doctor isn't really part of the joke? Just that she's a doctor?

Fair enough, I get it more now. The total role reversal that Tendou steals the doctor's jobs even from themselves. Shows more about Tendou's perfectness of mastering any role he partakes in, just like when he became priest before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 10

The serious version is in the beginning, with Yaguruma attempting to swallow his ego and live with his failure. He unconvincingly tries to be a booster for Kagami’s role as TheBee. He makes Tendou that tofu dish that’s, like, his only move. (It is adorable how he tries to smooth over every problem with this one tofu dish.) But this time he makes it Tendou’s way, an acknowledgement that Tendou was right and he was wrong. It’s Yaguruma admitting, in one signature dish, that he doesn’t know how to live his life, so he’ll live it the way Tendou told him.

Except, that’s not what Tendou wants. He doesn’t want this dude, who has so much potential, to just slouch his shoulders and follow someone else’s path. He wants Yaguruma to stop worrying about other people and excel for the sake of excellence. Yaguruma’s tofu dish isn’t the way Tendou would make it, but it’s Yaguruma’s tofu dish. Stop worrying about how you measure up to others and just be great.

This is one of the good lesson that can be taken from Kabuto, among its morally ambiguous characters, that you shouldn't always copy others and stay true to yourself.. Though still, there's a counteract to that message; that you should try to improve (especially if someone's wrong, where Yaguruma can be more unhinged than Tendou, staying true to yourself can be twisted into something like staying rotten if that's how you are), and one of the ways to do that is take inspiration from others... So, about this scene, it's Yaguruma taking it too far like even copying Tendou's style of making tofu? (something that he wins over Tendou from Hiyori's tasting them).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The joke version is how Tendou says loudly, constantly, that Kagami should be fired for doing his restaurant job poorly. And, he’s not joking! Kagami half-assing his job is offensive to Tendou. Tendou genuinely cares for Kagami, and it hurts his feelings to see Kagami be so sloppy and inattentive. It’s super funny that the hero of the show is telling people that his friend should definitely lose his job for being a slacker, but it’s a joke that’s both completely true to Tendou’s personal philosophy, and sort of key to the main Kagami/Tendou plot of this episode.

And Tendou's task-oriented approach here makes sense for him to see something outside that like friendship (at least from the outside for what's shown in Tendou) and feelings as unecessary and just a hindrance. He only takes the "emotions cloud our judgment part" or "emotions make us subject to manipulation" as his mindset, though this part of story has it being right (well, it's Tendou, after all) with Kagami being indecisive at his job.

And that mindset do, can make someone a little callous, which is unfortunately, a bunch of people think like that regarding emotions and even justifies some transgressive behavior that they think can improve others (like the harsh approach I talked before even when it's overboard). The counteract to Tendou's, or anyone alike like some other secondary Riders philosophy will be this; some audiences praise those mindset Tendou has and ridicule the ideal hero ones because they deem compassion as a weakness. But it depends on their situation. Perhaps their job require them to not hesitate, for example. But even then, in general anyone should have some level of moral and/or professional constraint. If we throw away compassion and all other forms of restraint, we'd easily end up unhinged and trigger-happy at just about anyone, and that is definitely not good for others (which is seen in this series for Tendou harming Kageyama).

Open display of emotions can actually be pragmatically useful if used well. Open display of emotions can be done on purpose to manipulate others and achieve the outcomes that one is after. Like for example, ideal heroes might do that unintentionally, but at times it does serve them well (e.g. lowering the guards of their audiences and earning their trust). There are also other characters (whether heroes or not) who intentionally display emotions and reveal a softer side to them in order to achieve their goals. Even toddlers naturally knows how to throw a tantrum in order to try pressure their parents to give them what they want.

And there are some situations where the supposedly "cool" anti-heroes (probably not Tendou, given what Kabuto as a series is, but the others) are actually missing out or failing when they could have gotten the job done more efficiently by displaying some emotions in a calculated way. They fail to do so because their emotional insecurities and emotional hurt are preventing them from displaying their emotions.

Emotion can be a weakness or a strength depending on how the user manages it. For example, there are people who lost control of themselves and make themselves easy prey while angry, and there are also other people who become stronger, deadlier, more focused and more efficient when in anger or adrenaline rush. Emotions managed poorly is weakness, but emotions managed well is a source of strength. Both nature and nurture can play a role in one's ability in managing one's emotions. Rather than trying to let go of our emotions altogether, we should work towards managing our emotions better.

And was his grandmother morally ambiguous too to teach him that friendship is for the naive? Otherwise, with the dilemma Kagami had for choosing to fight a friend or quit his dream job, would it cross your mind that, ZECT is the actual troublemaker? (between these 2 choices Kagami's struggling, take a 3rd option!) I also wonder how will ZECT punish if someone doesn't obey them including headquarters, like not killing Kabuto for Kagami as TheBee. It seems that the Zecter operates outside of ZECT like how Kabuto Zecter chooses Tendou. Kagami as TheBee is short lived, but Kagami's true one to fight in the series isn't as TheBee, so it's not a little too quickly.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

Yeah, I’m not sure I expected Kagami to remain as TheBee for a significant length of time, but I can say I was not expecting it to be one episode.

Next time, you will enter a realm that a certain seafood-on-two slices of bread once dubbed “The Inoue Zone”. I can already predict your reaction.

I'd say "Kagami had a good run as TheBee," but.. debatable! At least no one died?

Also... INOUE FOREVER! Very excited for tonight's episode.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I don't have anywhere near as much of a hard time getting behind the climax here as it seems Die did. Kagami having to choose between his friend and his power, it's a pretty obvious (if effective) note to land the story on, so I really appreciated the way the show gets a bit more clever with it. If this is an episode that makes you sit there afterwards and think intently about the meaning behind it, that kinda sounds like the exact opposite of a problem to me? Especially when it's a plot beat that's wrapped up in Tendou's own alien decision-making process, which is supposed to be enigmatic by nature.

Yeah, I... I would never mean to imply that an episode that inspired so much analysis out of me was a bad thing, it's just that...

Like, I wonder if the relationship between Tendou and Kagami could stand to be slightly less opaque? I don't want to lose the mystery and idiosyncrasy of Tendou's whole thing, but there's an element to their friendship/"friendship" that made some of Kagami's decision-making at the end of 10 feel difficult to comprehend. I don't have a solution for how you'd balance what you have now with what I think the show needs, but getting to the end of an episode and having to spend a bunch of time explaining to yourself why someone did something... I'm not sure that's the most optimal way to tell a story? Feels like a reason for folks to check out, if it's too much work to figure out a show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Fair enough, I get it more now. The total role reversal that Tendou steals the doctor's jobs even from themselves. Shows more about Tendou's perfectness of mastering any role he partakes in, just like when he became priest before.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much the joke; that any situation you drop Tendou in, he's going to make himself the focal point of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

This is one of the good lesson that can be taken from Kabuto, among its morally ambiguous characters, that you shouldn't always copy others and stay true to yourself.. Though still, there's a counteract to that message; that you should try to improve (especially if someone's wrong, where Yaguruma can be more unhinged than Tendou, staying true to yourself can be twisted into something like staying rotten if that's how you are), and one of the ways to do that is take inspiration from others... So, about this scene, it's Yaguruma taking it too far like even copying Tendou's style of making tofu? (something that he wins over Tendou from Hiyori's tasting them).

To me, it's a scene where Tendou is asking Yaguruma to be a better/truer Yaguruma, rather than follow Tendou's path. He wants Yaguruma to improve himself (because god knows he needs improvement at this point), not remake himself into someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And Tendou's task-oriented approach here makes sense for him to see something outside that like friendship (at least from the outside for what's shown in Tendou) and feelings as unecessary and just a hindrance. He only takes the "emotions cloud our judgment part" or "emotions make us subject to manipulation" as his mindset, though this part of story has it being right (well, it's Tendou, after all) with Kagami being indecisive at his job.

I think the thing I enjoyed the most about Tendou in this one was that he's very keen to compartmentalize people, or... like, to appreciate the core of a person, even if there's a ton of stuff around that core that he really hates. When Kagami tells Tendou that he'll have to fight Kabuto if he sees him again, Tendou is still like Okay But You're Coming To The Party Tonight Right. Like, Kabuto versus TheBee is a work thing, and Tendou's okay leaving it there and still being friends with Kagami. (Even the parts where Tendou thinks Kagami should lose his job... he still cares about Kagami! He's still his friend! Hating him as a worker and caring about him as a person are two separate things in Tendou's mind!) It's the same with Yaguruma, where he's able to want his rival to be the best version of himself. I think that's a very neat version of a Kamen Rider!

[Sh Ranger]

I agree that this is an episode that needs to be analyzed to be fully understood and I'm glad you did it cause it brought to my attention something I never put together. I always took Tendo's refusal of Kagami's friendship at face value, as him being hostile and showing the worst part of his character, but what you said makes sense. It seems unnecessarily cruel from Kagami's and probably the viewer's perspective but it would be wrong to give him friendship as an excuse to give up on being The Bee instead of making that decision on his own.

Tendo is a very misunderstood person and I think that concept works great since apparently, even I don't understand him completely. He has a tough love philosophy which he applies to Kagami and Hiyori, giving her something to have faith in. The person who understands him best is Jyuka.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

The person who understands him best is Jyuka.

And I think that's key, because she immediately realizes that Tendou cares for Kagami and considers him a friend. If you take that as a fact, it's easy to see how a lot of Tendou's actions against Kagami (not just in this episode!) are done with a weird type of affection, of a need to see Kagami become a better version of himself.

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Also... INOUE FOREVER! Very excited for tonight's episode.

Oh man, I'd say to prepare yourself but I don't think anything can prepare you for episode 11.

Quote:

Like, I wonder if the relationship between Tendou and Kagami could stand to be slightly less opaque? I don't want to lose the mystery and idiosyncrasy of Tendou's whole thing, but there's an element to their friendship/"friendship" that made some of Kagami's decision-making at the end of 10 feel difficult to comprehend. I don't have a solution for how you'd balance what you have now with what I think the show needs, but getting to the end of an episode and having to spend a bunch of time explaining to yourself why someone did something... I'm not sure that's the most optimal way to tell a story? Feels like a reason for folks to check out, if it's too much work to figure out a show.

The more I'm going through the show again the more I tend to think of Kagami as Kamen Rider's answer to Charlie Brown. He's a fundamentally moral character with a good heart and aspirations that tend to outstrip his abilities. He has dreams and ideals, though, and he never gives up on them. He's a good man and his reward for being good is to be surrounded by assholes who put him down at every turn.

I think this makes Tendou Snoopy, which works really well for me.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

The more I'm going through the show again the more I tend to think of Kagami as Kamen Rider's answer to Charlie Brown. He's a fundamentally moral character with a good heart and aspirations that tend to outstrip his abilities. He has dreams and ideals, though, and he never gives up on them. He's a good man and his reward for being good is to be surrounded by assholes who put him down at every turn.

I mean, there's a reason this is my signature image for watching Kabuto:

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 11



Okay, so.

There's a level at which I really loved this episode. The absurdity and specificity of all of the Daisuke and Gon stuff, yeah, 1000%. Him never remembering his pick-up lines so she has to finish them for him, yes. Him not wanting to save a dude, but leaping into action to save a lady, yes. Her clearly and canonically being the brains of the outfit, yes. The first scene of the episode being the two of them making a dying woman look better instead of actually providing any real help to her? So much yes. Their dynamic is exactly the sort of overheated nonsense that I've missed in my life. Inoue provides me essential, life-sustaining nutrients, and I've missed them from my diet. A delightful episode, from insane beginning to ridiculous ending. (Daisuke is maybe more horrified at his make-up artistry being destroyed than the fact that he's about to be monster murdered! And he's so put out by the Zecter!)

(If it seems like I'm not really digging into Daisuke and Gon: you're right! What's here is a collection of quirks, and very little in the way of coherent storytelling. Daisuke has weird feelings about women! Gon is his partner and I guess ward! They were randomly in the ruins of Shibuya! They fight crime to save women and also do emergency makeup! Daisuke likes a nice breeze! It's all very fun in the moment, but the Why of it all is nowhere to be found, so me talking about it would be total conjecture. Like all conjecture, I'd prefer to wait until the show wants to tell me something than guess at what it might be.)

But then there's the deeper level, with the actual story of Kabuto, and... man, real hard to see how this one comes together, and what it's trying to say.

Like, the runner for this episode is that Kagami wants to take his friendship with Tendou to the next level, and Tendou is being incredibly clear that he's not interested in that. (He also keeps hinting that there's something Kagami's forgotten, but I'm as clueless as Kagami, so that analysis will need to wait for the next episode, probably.) I'm super into the idea of Kagami and Tendou having different concepts of friendship, and that Kagami has maybe misconstrued the ending of the previous episode. (It's a tough one, Kagami! You are not alone!) So, spending some time exploring what Tendou and Kagami each want out of a friendship is valid narrative territory for the show.

It's just, boy, neither character comes off super great in this one. I can make allowances for each of them (Kagami has Very Big Feelings and definitely wants to be glued to Tendou's side now; Tendou finds the idea of having to full-time address Kagami's Very Big Feelings to be something akin to psychological torture, also all of the stuff I posted a little earlier today about Tendou being able to be friends with someone and still be super unsupportive and judgmental if they suck at something), but this is not an episode where it's easy to let them off the hook. Tendou is a relentless jerk, and Kagami is a pathetic simp. The dynamic is massively, hilariously, troublingly toxic.

The problem is that, normally, the show is a lot more nuanced in how it approaches these two characters. Tendou can be cold, but it's tempered with an inner warmth and desire to see others succeed. Kagami can be needy and brash, but it's tempered with an innate decency and confidence. Here, everything's turned up to INOUE and it's all extremes. Tendou is all cruel indifference, and Kagami is all clingy desperation. It's not that the characters are written wrong, it's that the calibration is all off. The little details that make the relationship between these two men seem, if nothing else, respectful... boy, that's all sandblasted into nothingness, a smooth surface of two guys who are varying amounts of awful to each other, pretty much non-stop.

But, other than that, I thought this episode ruled.

I'm really not sure what it's trying to say just yet, but the inclusion of a healthy partnership like Daisuke and Gon's, just as Tendou and Kagami are at their most insufferable, that is probably not a coincidence! (Daisuke's belief that women should be treated gently may also be a comment on Tendou's treatment of Kagami here, but a) delving into that is maybe dicier than I feel comfortable; and b) I'm not sure the show has nailed down enough of Daisuke's character to make statements contrasting him with Tendou.) It certainly feels like the show is getting into a story about how partnerships should work, but this is very much the throat-clearing part of that thesis. As it is, there's just a bunch of possibilities, and I'll see where it goes.

Which, fun to do, since all of that Daisuke and Gon stuff was delightful. The newest Rider gets to touch up a rich woman's makeup to contrast Kabuto's mid-episode fight scene! He even says Make Up instead of Clock Up! It's all very weird, and very fun. I don't feel like I know these two characters yet, but I loved getting to spend some time with them.

I wish I could've said the same about the show's regular duo!

A QUESTION

While this episode was maybe not his best fill-in work (Ryuki 29 and 30, by a mile, maybe my favorite Ryuki episodes full-stop), it's still terrifically funny and occasionally confounding, so I'm okay saying Inoue Forever. My deep and abiding love for the work of Toshiki Inoue (save a Kuuga story that was probably more the fault of my then-uncultured palate) is well established at this point, and probably not likely to abate any time soon. I can't imagine anyone else is going to so readily fly the flag for that guy, but what about other artists? Is there any artist (toku or otherwise) that has a blank check from you? Anyone whose work you can't imagine ever feeling disappointed with?

[FreshToku]

Since he's a dragonfly, you'd think Daisuke's Rider name should be... AMosquito, going by TheBee's example. Also wow, I didn't remember this episode at all! Everything about him and Gon's introduction, it's like we're back in those Taiyaki episodes of Blade.

For your question, I'm actually a little embarrassed to say that for a long time and sometimes even now, I really didn't pay attention or even keep track of which writers worked on which toku shows, especially if different ones will come in for given episodes. That said, I'd probably say Kobayashi since both Ryuki and OOO that make up my Rider experience in their own way. The uh, weirdness of Amazons hasn't changed that!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

Since he's a dragonfly, you'd think Daisuke's Rider name should be... AMosquito, going by TheBee's example. Also wow, I didn't remember this episode at all! Everything about him and Gon's introduction, it's like we're back in those Taiyaki episodes of Blade.

They don't ever say Daisuke's Rider name in this one, and I've got no clue as to what it is. (I know three other Rider names from Kabuto, but I don't think he's any of those.) Based on the names from this show I'm aware of, his name is either ShootHopper, or the Japanese word for gun.

...I'm pretty much going to call him ShootHopper no matter what, I hope everyone's cool with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

For your question, I'm actually a little embarrassed to say that for a long time and sometimes even now, I really didn't pay attention or even keep track of which writers worked on which toku shows, especially if different ones will come in for given episodes. That said, I'd probably say Kobayashi since both Ryuki and OOO that make up my Rider experience in their own way. The uh, weirdness of Amazons hasn't changed that!

Amazons! Second Rider show I ever watched (after Ex-Aid), and, uh, yeah! Weirdness is right!

I still have a real fondness for the first season. Alpha, god, one of the all time great Kamen Rider characters. It's a shame that the second season couldn't figure out a way to use its cast better, and it's a shame that the movie exists.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Okay, this couldn't wait until morning.

This is an exceptionally horny episode of Kabuto, no pun intended.

And, like, I'm not even talking about the weird group date or Tendou warning Misaki not to fall in love with him or Daisuke's weird deification of beautiful women, although: yes, all of that, obviously.

The thing that makes it exceptionally horny is: The core metaphor for what's happening with Tendou and Kagami is that they had sex, and then it got weird.

(Right upfront: I am not suggesting that there is any romantic connection between Tendou and Kagami. If you want to read it that way, I wouldn't argue against it, but I am not saying this episode is affirming any romantic feelings between the two characters. I am saying the metaphor that Inoue is working with is a sexual one.)

A lot of their story here is that something huge happened between them, and they're both interpreting it differently. To continue the They Had Sex metaphor, Kagami caught feelings and Tendou is very clearly not looking for a relationship right now. That leads to Kagami getting very couple-y (he just starts cleaning Tendou's living room, a normal thing that platonic friends do all the time) and Tendou trying desperately to push him away.

The whole thing is that neither of them is being very honest with the other about what they're looking for in a relationship. Kagami has Very Big Feelings and is ready for an immediate commitment (he even broke up with TheBee Zecter, so it's not even cheating anymore!), while Tendou is so unused to this type of arrangement that he'd rather blow it all up than actually make himself vulnerable. Kagami's all-in, and Tendou wants to take it slow.

But since they can't be honest about that, they settle for acting completely insane, and that's maybe more true-to-life than anything that's been on this show so far.

Inoue Forever.