[FreshToku]

I love Gatack! A big part of why I love the suit does come from the context of the show, having it be Kagami’s shining moment and also making such a killer duo with Kabuto. And CHANGE STAG BEETLE is just the best.

This episode is also the best. Kagami’s actions towards Makoto, even now knowing he’s a worm, was really great. It would have been so much less meaningful if he had just ‘toughened up’ and went for the kill, but it wouldn’t have been Kagami at all. And the end of the episode is by far my most vivid memory of the show and probably always will be, with Gatack and Kabuto standing in those ruins, and Kagami responding to Tendou saying without any shame that this is just who he is.

[catwhowalks]

Alright now, I can circle around to what I said on the first episode of the show I believe and correct something I said that was purposely not entirely true.

I compared the show to Hibiki with the real protagonist not being the main rider and just being a non rider who gets to know the rider. I probably only implied that last part, but of course it's completely false and while both shows feature a protagonist that is not the main rider, in this case the protagonist is actually the secondary rider.

didn't way to spoil that bit as, in a move I don't believe Kamen Rider has done before, unless you count the first show, the secondary rider doesn't actually get his proper debut as the secondary rider until the show is nearly halfway over and only after quite a few other riders have already been in the picture. This was an odd choice, but not one I at all minded.

I did find it interesting what you said about the traditional rider being split into two different characters. I never thought of it that way, but that does make an odd sort of sense.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

This episode is also the best. Kagami’s actions towards Makoto, even now knowing he’s a worm, was really great. It would have been so much less meaningful if he had just ‘toughened up’ and went for the kill, but it wouldn’t have been Kagami at all.

There was a point in the first third of Ghost, where Takeru has to make a choice between Winning, and being kind. I knew in the moment that if he chose Winning, I'd have to quit the show. Thankfully, it was a smarter series than that and I got to keep watching it.

Honestly, same thing here with Kagami. If he opted to Show His Strength or whatever by offing Makoto, I'd've probably lost all faith in the show. Instead, just like Takeru did with a different Makoto, he chooses to show kindness, even if it puts him at risk.

Such a fun show, Kabuto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catwhowalks

didn't way to spoil that bit as, in a move I don't believe Kamen Rider has done before, unless you count the first show, the secondary rider doesn't actually get his proper debut as the secondary rider until the show is nearly halfway over and only after quite a few other riders have already been in the picture. This was an odd choice, but not one I at all minded.

I think it's weirdly integral to Kagami's arc that, like, everyone gets to be a Rider before him. It reinforces his feelings of inadequacy and his desperation to contribute if he keeps missing his shot. It only works if it feels like it's never going to happen, you know?

[Switchblade]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

This was maybe the episode where I loved Kagami's dad's theatricality and propensity for portent. He is offering his son up as a sacrifice to a divine being, like he was talking about last episode. It's maybe the most reasonable time to play the cello and compare your son's uncertain future to the death of a famous composer?

And, really, contrasting Kagami's everyman character with the most unhinged performance on the show (so far!)... I love it? I love that his dad is so bonkers, since Kagami's so average in every way.

Kagami's dad is amazing. He's like Cake Boss from OOO, but blazed out of his mind. And it's always the kind of high where you're really, really impressed with how amazing your own ideas sound to your altered state of consciousness.

Goro-chan: "Sir, your son has become Kamen Rider Gatack."

Kagami's dad: "Have you ever thought about Mozart? Like really thought about Mozart?"

Goro-chan: "..."

Kagami's dad: "Mozart."

I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler because I don't remember if it's real or not, but I'm pretty sure there's an episode where he just starts dancing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

If the second half of this episode didn't go the way it went, the two screencaps were going to be Hiyori asking Jiiya if he was trying to pay with a fork, and the shot of the fork in the cash register. It's probably embarrassing to admit, but that insert shot of the fork in the cash-tray is my favorite part of 22, full-stop. Such a great punchline. I love that choice in the editing and direction so, so much.

That was another amazing bit. I love how, once again, Hiyori's actress plays everything with such apathetic annoyance.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Kagami's dad is amazing. He's like Cake Boss from OOO, but blazed out of his mind. And it's always the kind of high where you're really, really impressed with how amazing your own ideas sound to your altered state of consciousness.

Kagami's dad has crossed the line into self-parody, and it feels real intentional? Like, I don't think we're reading him wrong by laughing at his self-seriousness and tendency to frame everything in analogies and parables. I don't think the same writer who had Jiiya offer to pay for Hiyori's time with a fork (while firmly believing that she was getting the better part of the deal by far) did not know that Kagami's dad is a joke.

Which, again, I love? I love how the show keeps finding weird angles to do incredibly stock stories. Like, Jiiya. Jiiya's great because he could be the Jim Reaction From The Office to everything Tsurugi does, but he's not that at all. He's so proud of Tsurugi, constantly, at all times. He honest-to-god feels lucky to be serving Tsurugi, despite Tsurugi being the least-functioning human being on a show that includes Kageyama. It takes the joke of Tsurugi, and then builds in another joke, which somehow double-negatives into being a relationship that feels real and sweet.

Kagami's dad and Goro, sort of the same thing? Kagami's dad is utterly insane, but Goro treats every non-sequitur and dissociative ramble as, like, pearls of wisdom, which makes it all seem like it still exists in the borders of the narrative.

It's a show that is definitely having fun with the conventions that it is adhering to somewhat slavishly.

[Deepsea]

Thank you all for reminding me I want a gattack zector.

Also Gattack is a fantastic design, I just love the blue/yellow contrast and the bright red eyes just seal the deal.

[Androzani84]

Well, I’m back with another round of homage explanations

Gatack/Kuuga (Stag Beetle)

Both have a pretransformed state (Growing Form/Masked Form)

Both get beat up constantly. (Thanks for that tidbit, Kurona)

Both are hailed as the strongest Rider within their setting. (Though both are also the weakest.)

And I’ll do a special comparison with, of all things, a Super Sentai duo.

Kabuto and Gatack/ KabutoRaiger and KuwagaRaiger (from Ninpuu Sentai Hurricaneger)

Both are based on the “Japanese Beetle Brothers” archetype.

Both have a red/blue colour contrast between members.

Both have a gun and a claw weapon as their weapon of choice (though KuwagaRaiger’s isn’t a pair of hedge trimmers)

In both duos, the blue one is the more approachable.

And heads up, the “after the next time trailer” clips will begin advertising the movie with the next episode.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER KABUTO - EPISODE 22

I mean, this is an episode that starts with Kagami getting a pep talk from his boss that’s basically If You’re Going To Be An Idiot, Be The Best Idiot You Can Be. It’s an episode that constantly undercuts Kagami’s determination by pointing out how much trouble it gets him in. When he races off to the factory that Makoto’s hiding in, he immediately gets surrounded by the Worms. There is no plan from Kagami, just emotion. He has absolutely no chance, as a normal human, to actually save Makoto from a nest of Worms. But he throws himself into that danger, because he can’t stop himself. He will do whatever it takes to save this kid.

Who, of course, isn't even a kid at all. Makoto is a Worm, just like everyone’s been telling Kagami. It’s a trap, just like it seemed to be last time. And so Kagami is killed for his failure, for his naivete, for his misplaced belief in Makoto, for his stupid insistence that he could make a difference despite being powerless.

Yeah, Kagami, as said by Tadokoro in this episode, is an idiot, although it's not something that is hateable within him, instead likely endearing to him. And that sums up how Kagami's not the brightest; he didn't use any plan to save Makoto, and he went there as a normal human to fend off Worms, just like he usually does. He's a reckless hothead with his burning desire to kill all Worms. I'd want for a series to prove that the type of Kagami's morality isn't inherently an idiot though, like probably Yusuke. I'd wonder if Kagami was actually too late where there's a real Makoto that is a genuine child, but he's killed by Worm that impersonates as Makoto, and was the one Kagami met at his 2nd attempt against him, or that Makoto is really the Worm from the beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It all starts to wind back. Kagami isn’t powerless; the Gatack Zecter comes to him, saving his life and giving him the strength to defeat the Worms. He wasn’t wrong to believe in Makoto; some small part of him lived on in the Worm, and saved Gatack from the factory’s explosion. His naivete wasn’t his failure; he succeeded due to his blind faith that people are worth saving, that his Very Big Feelings were a strength. And so he gets to live another day, as Kamen Rider Gatack.

It’s a fantastic sequence, and I get why these episodes stick in people’s memories now. (I still think the first one isn’t perfect, though!) This episode is all about breaking down Kagami, exposing his flaws… and then asking if those same flaws aren’t really flaws at all? It’s bold, to spend half an episode (and most of the rest of the series) to make him look like such a chump. Yet, somehow, all of that just ends up making his victory so much sweeter.

There you go. Kabuto's secondary Rider is Kagami, as Gatack. It took probably significantly longer than usual secondary Rider (who can appear second, or even first like G3 or Knight), but cmiiw, you seem to, understandably though, think that Kagami's done as a Rider after TheBee, but the merchandising of Kabuto blatantly tells otherwise. And I'd bring up again Tendou/Kagami's dynamic, where Tendou's the calm, unflappable, and stoic to Kagami's idiot, rash, struggling, unlucky and naive. This is reflected in their Rider form, which is ironically, Tendou's is red and Kagami's is blue (when Tendou's the blue to Kagami's red), but their eye colors are accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The trick is that Kagami doesn’t learn a lesson here. It’s not a story where he grows, or changes his mind, or whatever. It’s… I mean, hilariously, it’s what I dinged the show for last episode, but praise it for now: it’s just reminding us who Kagami is as a man. All of the stuff it usually laughs at him for, it really delves into this episode and tries to explain. This story makes it tragic, and then makes it heroic. He’s not more anything in this one. He’s just Kagami, for better or worse.

Nowhere is that more apparent than the ending, which is a subtle twist on the ending to 4, the best ever Kabuto ending to date. (This one’s good, but… man, 4. Tough to beat!) As the Makoto Worm tries to appeal to Gatack’s sympathy by doing the You Wouldn’t Detonate Wittle Owe Me routine, it looks like we’re back at the baseball diamond, with Kagami unable to pull the trigger on his brother’s memory. Kagami came to this factory to save Makoto. Can he really kill what’s left of him? So Kabuto walks up, once again opting to make the hard choice that Kagami’s too sweet to do. But Gatack stops him, says that he’ll take care of it.

Yeah, this part of episode resembles the 4, where Kagami struggles to kill a Worm due to the memories of the human they impersonate. Everything who Kagami is as a man is always heroic, just that succeeding or not depends. Kagami is usually a failure hero, and in worse case, even ruins the plan in his organization, but this one's similarly heroic and just Kagami, but this one's given a big triumph with the secondary Rider in Kabuto making a scene. Kagami truly didn't learn a lesson here as he keeps doing what he usually does, and that's encouraged by Tadoroko now and to a lesser extent Misaki.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But he doesn’t kill the Worm. Kagami takes his sympathy, his ability to care about the life the Worm stole, and turns it back on the Worm. He gives the Worm the moonbow that Makoto always wanted to see, the wish he was never granted when he was alive. It’s not enough to stop the Worm (it charges Gatack), but it’s enough to redeem Makoto’s memory. A Rider Kick from Gatack finishes off the attacking Worm, but what remains of Makoto uses his final moments to save Gatack from the factory’s explosion. It’s kindness repaying kindness.

And that’s Kagami, you know? He’s not a smart fighter. (He jumps his bike in the most badass way, before getting knocked right the eff off of it by a Worm a second later.) But he won’t let reason get in the way of his Very Big Feelings, since his Very Big Feelings are always pointed in the direction of Helping. He may be a burden, like Kagami once said. He may be an idiot, like Tadokoro said in this one. But he’s always a hero.

And like above yeah, this time Kagami's decision, after stopping Tendou too, is rewarded like how he's Gatack now, with how the Worm shielded Gatack. Now it shows that Kagami's way has real benefit, and probably Tendou's right ahead to see it. Though still, Worms are two-faced (except apparently Makoto here who repaid Kagami's deeds), I want for heroes to acknowledge that being nice outside can just be an act, and that's crucial in saving others too and giving less time for those two-faced to hide behind their friendly facade to continue destroying in silence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

(I hate consigning an entire subplot to a parenthetical, but there’s really no way to fit in the Tsurugi stuff to what’s going on in the rest of this episode.

Well yeah, there's funny stuff in this episode, but that's in other plot entirely, nothing connected to Kagami's. So it's ok for the comedy part to be used on entirely the other part, and let the main plot be dark as ever to you? And I don't think that comedy is inherent "lightness", because for example if it's about how any toxic and crude behaviors being considered funny, and those actions being justified because of being hilarious without any regards to the victims where it don't matter as much as the comedic or entertainment value in those behaviours, then that's comedic sociopathy, and those engaging in that are emotional cruelty. Yeah as I said before, Tendou's probably have a soft spot towards chefs, other than Hiyori who he treats like Juka, there's also Jiiya here, who he outright consider humanity's treasure. Tendou being rude to Tsurugi is deserved for him though. Hiyori's catchphrase is "nande boku ga" (why me?) so her rolling her eyes is a continuation of that, of her being misantrophic, wanting to avoid people. They do finally show a scheming bastard, if put into mundane situation in Kageyama, that his attempt to blend in the crowd is just upsettling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

A QUESTION

Gatack! Let’s talk about our slick new Rider. I mostly like the suit, especially how it’s way more drawn from Kabuto’s suit than the other Riders. Making it another kind of beetle is the easiest way to do that, with everything being a slight variation on Kabuto’s aesthetic. The chestpiece in particular is, like, Kabuto But Blue Now. It’s not a great look that we get this time, with the first Gatack fight being underground in the dark, but I did like most of what I saw. (Not crazy about the shoulder swords, but they’ll probably grow on me.) What do you think of the Gatack costume?

I probably like Gatack more compared to Kabuto, although I wasn't fully into the rugged stuff in his head (I know his motif is stag beetle, but probably can be done in better way for me).

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshToku

This episode is also the best. Kagami’s actions towards Makoto, even now knowing he’s a worm, was really great. It would have been so much less meaningful if he had just ‘toughened up’ and went for the kill, but it wouldn’t have been Kagami at all. And the end of the episode is by far my most vivid memory of the show and probably always will be, with Gatack and Kabuto standing in those ruins, and Kagami responding to Tendou saying without any shame that this is just who he is.

Well yeah, this can be a debate between the charascter being OOC, or it being a character development if Kagami did finish off Makoto. And that's something I want to know and settle between character's changes. Where Kagami had a toughened up declaration where he won't forgive Worms that abuse trusts from humans.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

He's a reckless hothead with his burning desire to kill all Worms. I'd want for a series to prove that the type of Kagami's morality isn't inherently an idiot though, like probably Yusuke.

One of the things this episode tries to do is disentangle Kagami's impetuousness/recklessness/stupidity from his kindness/empathy/generosity. Like, he's not an idiot because of his strong moral code, he's an idiot with a strong moral code. Part of what he realizes in this episode is that his quirks and idiosyncrasies aren't necessarily bad things.

And, I don't know that his burning desire is to kill all Worms? In this one, he's the one character who is trying to salvage some humanity from the Worms actions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I'd wonder if Kagami was actually too late where there's a real Makoto that is a genuine child, but he's killed by Worm that impersonates as Makoto, and was the one Kagami met at his 2nd attempt against him, or that Makoto is really the Worm from the beginning.

Huh! I'd read it as Makoto in both episodes being a Worm (I think he says in 22 that he was always trying to trick Kagami into holding off Shadow's attack, but once the Riders moved in there was no need for the ruse), but there's a chance that Makoto got switched out between episodes. Hadn't considered that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

So it's ok for the comedy part to be used on entirely the other part, and let the main plot be dark as ever to you?

I mean, I don't know if I want to make a rule about it or anything, but I think having a comedic subplot to cut away to (at least in the first half of 22) kept this thing from being too dark. As it is, the second half features Kagami being murdered by a boy he was trying to defend, so having some goofy-ass story about Tsurugi's birthday party was a pretty smart choice in the story. It still left room in the second-half of the episode to really drill into its themes and maintain a consistent atmosphere, so I'm good with it.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

A QUESTION

Gatack! Let’s talk about our slick new Rider. I mostly like the suit, especially how it’s way more drawn from Kabuto’s suit than the other Riders. Making it another kind of beetle is the easiest way to do that, with everything being a slight variation on Kabuto’s aesthetic. The chestpiece in particular is, like, Kabuto But Blue Now. It’s not a great look that we get this time, with the first Gatack fight being underground in the dark, but I did like most of what I saw. (Not crazy about the shoulder swords, but they’ll probably grow on me.) What do you think of the Gatack costume?

Sasword is still my favorite ZECT Rider suit but I like Gatack, he looks very cool and intimidating which is appropriate for the currently strongest Rider in the show.

He's also a blue Secondary Rider whose name is Kagami, which will later be repeated with Kagami Hiiro, who also had a joke father.

There's something else unique about the Gatack Zecter but I'll talk about that later when it becomes more relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Couple extra random things about this episode that I thought up while eating dinner.

The main one is that Kagami's arc in this one really feeds into the theme of Humility, and I didn't see it at first. He's a guy that wants to be exceptional, wants be helpful, and he just doesn't measure up to the Riders. He keeps failing because he's not them. His success comes from accepting his limitations, and owning his flaws. He's never going to be Tendou, but he can still be a great Kagami. In fact, being a great Kagami might even be just as good as being Tendou. (Not really, but let's let him have this one.)

The other thing is that, with Kagami as a Rider, it really spotlights how the show split the traditional Primary Rider character in two. Tendou is all the skill, all the coolness; Kagami is all of the empathy, all of the kindness. It's like someone took Kuuga's thing of Protecting Smiles, and gave Protecting to Tendou, and Smiles to Kagami. Tendou is someone who will fight to keep you safe, while Kagami is someone who'll fight to make you happy. Interesting to me how the show managed that.

I think that's a good compromize. I've heard a lot of people call Kagami the true protagonist but I don't think that's entirely fair on Tendo. It's just that the former expresses heroism though feelings and the latter expresses it through actions. Tendo feels as well but he doesn't need to express them, since he doesn't need to prove his heroism to people by talking like a hero, he knows he's a hero and he doesn't really care if anyone else understands him. If someone looks at the sun and says "are you the sun?", the sun doesn't need to answer, it doesn't need to prove itself. It's the sun and Tendo is a hero, whether people accept that or not.

Tendo could be considered a personification of destiny, manipulating people towards a desirable outcome. But this destiny is soft determinism and Kagami is an anomaly in his world who refuses to bend to his will. On a chessboard, it's easy to underestimate the pawns, they're the weakest. But when a pawn promotes to a queen, the paradigm changes. That's Kagami. I think the idea of someone so infallible finding a rival in someone so flawed is intriguing and the reason why this story is just as much about Tendo as it is about Kagami. Now Kagami can express his heroism through both feelings and actions as Kamen Rider Gatack, a hero who stays true to his principles even when it gets difficult which is a quality so far unique to both him and Tendo as every other Rider in the show is either a poser or just doesn't have any noble principles.