[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

So I thought I?€™d start with a brief discussion of Deneb. He?€™s based off a Tengu (a Japanese creature who?€™s name translates to ?€œheavenly dog?€?, despite often being depicted as a humanoid crow) and he?€™s named after a star that I assume is part of a trinity with Altair and Vega (mostly because of how much I see the three used together in fiction).

And no, for the requisite VAs list.

Hōchu Ōtsuka (stage name for Yoshitada Ōtsuka)

Notable Anime roles: Jiraiya in Naruto, Yazan Gable in Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, Alfred in Batman Ninja

Notable Tokusatsu roles: Signalman in Gekisou Sentai Carranger and Kaizoku Sentai Gokaiger, Callas in Kamen Rider Battride War, the Narrator in Kamen Rider Gaim, Maja in Kamen Rider Gaim Final Stage.

Notable Dubbing roles: Ultra Magnus in The Transformers, Dr. Ian Malcolm in the Jurassic Park series, Grandmaster in Thor: Ragnarok, Data in the Star Trek franchise, Doggett in The X-Files, Eliot Ness in The Untouchables, Jim Gordon in Batman Begins, Hades in Clash of the Titans, Joke in The Dark Knight, Piccolo in Dragonball Evolution, General Xaviax in Kamen Rider Dragon Knight, James Bond in License to Kill, Morgan Spurlock in Super Size Me, Leonardo in the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles films, Steven in Arthur Christmas, Warp Darkmatter in Buzz Lightyear of Star Command, Carlos and Phil in Hop, Kent Mansley in The Iron Giant, Dick Dastardly in Scoob, Alpha in Up.

And for our bad guy of the week

Ryūsei Nakao

Notable Anime roles: Mayuri Kurotsuchi in Bleach, Frieza in Dragon Ball Z, Caesar Clown in One Piece, Noise in Suite Pretty Cure, King in Garo: Vanishing Line.

Notable Tokusatsu roles: Gou Koyuki in Denshi Sentai Denziman (live role), Rain Alien Agent Abrella in Tokusou Sentai Dekaranger, Masakage Tsugomori in Shuriken Sentai Ninninger, Alien Nackle in Ultraman Mebius and the Ultraman Brothers.

Notable dubbing roles: Speckles in G-Force, Solomon Lane in the Mission Impossible series, Tramp in the
Andy and the Tramp series, Ling in Mulan, Snowball in The Secret Life of Pets, Ziro the Hutt in Star Wars: The Clone Wars,

Neat! Thanks! What did you think of the episode?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

The core difference between Yuuto and Kiriya (aside from the fact that Yuuto is on a real show and Kiriya is from the purely fictitious post-cancellation ?€œepisodes?€? of Hibiki) is in the motivations behind their behavior. Kiriya (pretending he exists, for the sake of argument) was a selfish dick who was motivated primarily by his own entitlement. Yuuto, on the other hand, is a nice and caring person; we see that in the glimpses of his future self. He acts like a dick, though, because of his situation and how he chooses to handle it.

Yuuto is a teenager - I?€™m not sure how old exactly he?€™s supposed to be, but he?€™s probably about the same age as Ryotaro. He?€™s been caught up in the events of the show for reasons we?€™ll find out later, though, so he?€™s doing what a lot of teenagers would do in this kind of situation: trying to act like he?€™s super cool and in complete control of what?€™s happening. He?€™s a jerk to Ryotaro because he wants Ryotaro to think that he?€™s this awesome badass who totally knows what?€™s going on and who?€™s way cooler than that Den-O loser. But, as we see with him buying the vest and getting coffee, he?€™s absolutely still just an immature teenager.

One of the many, many great things about Deneb is that he not only completely ignores all of Yuuto?€™s bluster, but simultaneously calls him out on it while apologizing for it. I hadn?€™t made the Jiiya/Tsurugi connection before (probably because, like I?€™ve said before, Kabuto did not stick in my long term memory), but it?€™s very much that kind of dynamic. The core difference is that Deneb tries to compensate for Yuuto?€™s worst impulses instead of enabling them.

Sure! But at this point, after one episode, the approach of Yuuto is very much the approach of first-episode Kiriya. You said "He's a jerk to Ryotaro because he wants Ryotaro to think that he's this awesome badass who totally knows what's going on and who's way cooler than that Den-O loser," and that's almost entirely Kiriya's first storyline! They're both characters who are scared of looking vulnerable in front of people they want to befriend, so they go hilariously far into the opposite direction by looking like a contemptuous villain.

Like, I'm sure there'll be a ton of differences down the line. We're talking about a character designed by Inoue versus a character designed by Kobayashi. If I asked those two writers to pour me a bowl of cereal, I'd probably be handed a crepe with Froot Loops inside and some addictively sweet Froot Loop-flavored milk. They work different ways, and these shows are trying to do different things. But the introduction, the exterior of Yuuto and Kiriya, that part is very similar.

[Androzani84]

As a rule, I’m holding off on opinions until both episodes have been watched by you.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

As a rule, I’m holding off on opinions until both episodes have been watched by you.

Okay! Got it!

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 19 - “THAT MAN, ZERONOSTART”

But, no, not really for Yuuto. He’s basically What If Kyosuke From Hibiki Became Sasword From Kabuto. It’s all of Kyosuke’s weird friend-negging from Hibiki, where it’s clear that he wants to make a connection but he’s dead-set on being a full-time asshole. And it’s also all of the Tsurugi/Jiiya stuff from Kabuto, where there’s an attempt by a guardian to protect and improve their charge, but with so many insane touches (Deneb candy!) (!!!!!!!!!!!) (?) (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) that it’s unclear if either one of them is capable of surviving this partnership.

The character of Yuuto in the moment, in the scene, it’s pretty much just Kyosuke. He’s immediately standoffish and insulting to Ryotaro, and he even shows up later specifically to piss him off! He’s just a weird, pushy jerk from start to finish, with almost no attempt to create a sympathetic character outside of hints that he's doing all this because he's lonely and too weird to be nice.

Yuuto is like Kyosuke here, but with opposite reception. Yuuto was hated before he even made his debut, as his actor Yuichi Nakamura had annoyed so many people with his portrayal of Kyosuke Hibiki and fans feared a repeat performance. Yuuto's acting is really similar to Kyosuke here, but Yuuto is more of a jerk based on circumstances rather than being based on pettiness, and has redeeming side, but not shown now. Aside from Yuichi Nakamura (there's a Japanese VA with the exact same name as him too) went from a show with Oni to a show with Owner, there's also a resemblance between Hibiki and Momotaros and that led to some memes as well, with this also being referenced in later shows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I was really into Kyosuke on Hibiki (if memory serves) (could be wrong!), so him showing up to do the same shtick on Den-O with Jiiya But An Imagination Monster From The End Of Time in tow, hell yes. That is a mash-up that is Hall of Fame caliber. It’s a fun addition to Den-O because, for a human, he’s a more present character than we’ve seen before, no pun intended. Yuuto’s someone who is instantly irritating, adding friction to every Ryotaro scene. He’s aggressively secretive, and smirking in his opaqueness. He clearly wants to make friends, but seems to consider Emotionally Dominating Them as the key to success. Yuuto’s forceful, and that makes him fun to see in a scene with Ryotaro (quiet), Hana (skeptical), and Airi (consistently pleasant). He’s… he’s all sharp edges, and that’s a new development for a show that’s mostly been about wacky fun and sitcom disagreements.

Yuuto also has spoiled part of his personality where he acts like a child when things don't go his way or putting many sugars in coffee before tasting it. Like common rival characters in fiction, he's also someone who looks down on trivial things like friendship, or has his own toxic way to process it (dominating them), berating Ryotaro or Deneb for suggesting that to him. I got the vibe of Makoto in Ghost for Yuuto, that from what the others like Ryotaro said, he used to be a kinder guy in the past, and circumstances likely happen that turned Yuuto into irritating jerk right now. For him having sharp edge, probably it's not a new development? Yuuto being spoiled is like Ryutaros, and the other Imagins are jerks as well except Kintaros. Deneb seems to be another Imagin who is just generally nice like Kintaros.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

If there’s a part I dislike to Yuuto, it’s how wrapped up his story is in Airi and Sakurai. The show clearly is going someplace with the three of them, where there’s some time-loop weirdness to how that relationship plays out, but it’s a story that feels destined to be portioned out at a rate I’ll be unhappy with. Having not loved the Airi revelations from last time, the weird mix of Yuuto taunting Ryotaro with traumatizing Airi (?) and Ryotaro’s shouting at Airi to keep her from discovering Yuuto’s identity… not into that part! I’m okay with Yuuto having secrets at this point, but I’m not thrilled with scenes that are just the show being evasive to fill time. It’s stuff that could be resolved with a conversation, and I don’t love that conversation being avoided for dumb reasons.

But what if it's not for dumb reasons and just character flaw (like the mindset about Faiz)? Yuuto inflicting that to Ryotaro and Airi is probably in-character, for him being irritating jerk who (likely pretends, or trying to harden himself into that) tries to not care for others and is strictly focused on the mission, likely considering feelings or such as weakness that gets in the way, including compassion like Ryotaro's that can lead into protecting people and disrupting the flow of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-This episode was pretty much wall-to-wall Yuuto, but there was a little bit of time for other things. Namely, this story’s monster! Not much to him, but I love that in an episode that let the Yuuto parts sprawl comedically, the Jellyfish Imagin was in some huge rush to finish his contract. Great counterpoint to how unhurried the rest of the story was, narratively.

In this episode, there's a change where usually Imagins attack people to grant the contract holder's wish, this time, the Imagin attacks the contract holder instead to get their wish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Amongst his whole Being An Uninterrupted Prick agenda, there were some intriguing looks at how Den-O and Zeronos’s missions might differ. Or, maybe it’s more how Ryotaro and Yuuto’s missions differ? Yuuto tries to make it clear that it’s sometimes more important to protect time than it is to protect individual people, which is an outlook that Ryotaro fundamentally doesn’t share. Ryotaro’s doing all of this as Den-O to make a positive change in individual lives. The idea of only focusing on the broader goal of protecting time itself, that’s almost abhorrent to Ryotaro. It makes for an interesting dynamic to explore, where both Riders are being heroic in parallel ways. Like train tracks! Metaphor!

Yuuto continues the formula of secondary Rider, the cutthroat anti-hero compared to the primary Rider's ideal hero. Yuuto is focused on protecting the flow of time, and will try to ignore anything else for it, including protecting people, including making sacrifices to save the future, and also can use dishonest methods to get the job done at this time. Also for both comments nice catch of the comparisons between 2 things in the episode.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I got the vibe of Makoto in Ghost for Yuuto, that from what the others like Ryotaro said, he used to be a kinder guy in the past, and circumstances likely happen that turned Yuuto into irritating jerk right now. For him having sharp edge, probably it's not a new development? Yuuto being spoiled is like Ryutaros, and the other Imagins are jerks as well except Kintaros. Deneb seems to be another Imagin who is just generally nice like Kintaros.

Yeah, Deneb has a lot of Jiiya in him, where he's trying to provide guidance for someone he cares about while being subservient to him. It definitely can lead to a spoiled character, but hopefully Yuuto can turn out as well as Tsurugi did, rather than how Kyosuke did.

The Makoto comparison is interesting, but I think this show is doing it in reverse? There may be a twist coming for the whole Yuuto/Sakurai story, but currently it seems like they're telling us that Yuuto eventually becomes the kind Sakurai at some point in the future. Even though Ryotaro knows him as a good man, this version is still the abrasive teenager.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 19 - “THAT MAN, ZERONOSTART”

If there’s a part I dislike to Yuuto, it’s how wrapped up his story is in Airi and Sakurai. The show clearly is going someplace with the three of them, where there’s some time-loop weirdness to how that relationship plays out, but it’s a story that feels destined to be portioned out at a rate I’ll be unhappy with. Having not loved the Airi revelations from last time, the weird mix of Yuuto taunting Ryotaro with traumatizing Airi (?) and Ryotaro’s shouting at Airi to keep her from discovering Yuuto’s identity… not into that part! I’m okay with Yuuto having secrets at this point, but I’m not thrilled with scenes that are just the show being evasive to fill time. It’s stuff that could be resolved with a conversation, and I don’t love that conversation being avoided for dumb reasons.

This is exactly the same problem I have with Yuto's introduction. He's not an inherently bad character and I actually like his interactions with Deneb. I mean, Deneb is a ninja Imagin, of course I like him! It's just that Yuto is such a big story character and in a show titled Kamen Rider Den-O where plot is secondary to characters, I think that can be intrusive. The subplot with him and Airi is like the Yui and Kanzaki subplot in Ryuki. It's very important and yet very dull. I don't know why Kobayashi keeps doing this.

Exception: The coffee scene. That was humorous!

I mentioned before in the Hibiki thread that I prefer Kiriya out of Nakamura's two a**hole characters. I just think that Kiriya fits in to that show more, as an obstacle to the harmony and a catalyst for Shounen's development. Yuto probably has more personal qualities but I don't like how much the show focuses on him at the expense of everybody else. Like you said, Ryoutarou trying to keep the truth from Airi just slows everything down to a drag.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

This is exactly the same problem I have with Yuto's introduction. He's not an inherently bad character and I actually like his interactions with Deneb. I mean, Deneb is a ninja Imagin, of course I like him! It's just that Yuto is such a big story character and in a show titled Kamen Rider Den-O where plot is secondary to characters, I think that can be intrusive. The subplot with him and Airi is like the Yui and Kanzaki subplot in Ryuki. It's very important and yet very dull. I don't know why Kobayashi keeps doing this.

Exception: The coffee scene. That was humorous!

Yeah, my favorite Yuuto scenes were all of the non-Ryotaro ones! The coffee scene, the Deneb brawl, the shopping trip... those were great! He's a fun character to see running around, where he's trying to present a version of himself that people will respect, but it's all transparent and off-putting. Adding in Deneb as the part of him that is trying to course-correct, the tiny sliver of self-awareness and vulnerability, that's all great. And then all of the Ryotaro scenes were just:

YUUTO: I have a terrible secret.
RYOTARO: Can you tell me your terrible secret?
YUUTO: UGH, why do you have to keep pestering me about my terrible secret?

Every scene he has with Ryotaro in this episode is just this Simpsons gif:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I mentioned before in the Hibiki thread that I prefer Kiriya out of Nakamura's two a**hole characters. I just think that Kiriya fits in to that show more, as an obstacle to the harmony and a catalyst for Shounen's development. Yuto probably has more personal qualities but I don't like how much the show focuses on him at the expense of everybody else. Like you said, Ryoutarou trying to keep the truth from Airi just slows everything down to a drag.

Yeah, time'll tell (sorry), but Kiriya was most instantly impactful to the themes of Hibiki, while Yuuto is more instantly impactful to the plot of Den-O. Yuuto, for all of his delightful terribleness, doesn't currently feel any different than a fifth Imagin on the DenLiner would.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 20 - "I'M WARNING YOU NOW”




One of my favorite things about the structure of Den-O is how the various Contract Imagin the heroes use are really just aspects of a personality. One of the themes of the show is that we have all of these things inside of us, all of these parts of who we are, and we need to figure out how to best utilize them in order to live a worthwhile life.

Like, Ryotaro's Imagin are all characters on the show, but they also represent parts of him that he's buried, or that he's obscured in some way. Momo is his passion, Ura is his cunning, Kin is his bravery, Ryu is his protectiveness. How he balances the powers of the Imagin to detonate monsters is really just a metaphor for how we each get through a day. How we juggle all of these impulses.

The best part, to me, is how the show is clear that these impulses can be good and bad. Momo is passionate, which is something Ryotaro could stand to be more of, but Momo's passion can have him acting rashly and causing problems. Ura's cunning is helpful for solving problems and overcoming obstacles, but it's easy to see how it could become lying for its own sake. Kin's bravery is necessary for staring down an impossible situation and surviving it, but it can also make someone feel invulnerable and interject themselves into problems that don't need their attention. And Ryu's innocent devotion to Airi spotlights Ryotaro's commitment to family, which can also be twisted into overprotectiveness.

The thing is, the show's been telling that story for its run so far, and they usually come at it as Bad Trait > Good Trait > Neutral Trait. We see Momo act rashly, then we see Momo's rashness as a way towards victory, and we realize that emotions and drives are more about how their used. But it's almost always Bad before it's anything else.

So it's nice to get this Yuuto/Deneb story that has a jerk human and a good Imagin, giving us an inversion of the typical formula. It's a story where we get to see a team that's both more effective, and more unhappy.

If the main Imagin are the parts of Ryotaro that he has trouble expressing, it is delightful to see through Deneb that Yuuto's buried emotions are Politeness and Empathy. Whole scenes of Deneb trying to make a good first impression, trying to push Yuuto into being a better person, trying to let more kindness into the world... fantastic. And it's still following the No Good Or Bad Traits thing by showing how Deneb's deference and obsequiousness can create barriers to Yuuto's success in combat, in life-or-death situations. There's a time for politeness, and A Jellyfish Imagination Monster From The End Of Time Is Trying To Kill You is maybe not it. Maybe!

It's a great episode for showcasing the Yuuto/Deneb team. It's dead-on Den-O storytelling, but completely flipped around. It's about a kind, heroic Imagin trying to harness the power of a petulant, disruptive human, and how the balance of Kindness and Pragmatism finds success. It's a very fun story to tell.



THE BAGGAGE CAR

-Sort of shocked that this show would have the guts to do an on-the-nose Buried Past story as the monster plot in a two-parter that is largely concerned with the Sakurai of the past. Bold! I think it worked okay as a parallel to the Airi/Sakurai plot that's more in the foreground lately, plus I just thought it was sweet? It's this very minor story about a guy whose fiance died, and about how him living a happy life is honoring her more than clinging to the past, and about how hard it can be to move on from grief. I just liked it.

-Naomi and Ura's synchronized choreography in the background of Owner's ZeroLiner exposition is maybe the main Den-O Thing that I'll remember after I've forgotten everything else from this series (a month after I finish watching it). It's just two actors screwing around while Very Serious Plot Things happen in the foreground, and I love it.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 20 - "I'M WARNING YOU NOW”




I sort of can't believe that an episode almost entirely devoted to showing off the Cool New Rider ends with the show going Yeah But Den-O's Cooler. Like, you guys! Hell of a swerve!

I think it works, though. It works because it's totally underplayed. It works because Yuuto has a bunch of incredibly valid points, but the show just goes So? at the end. It's an ending that only works if you value Ryotaro more than you value being right, and I guess I do!

I mean, this episode is all about showing you Yuuto's process and hearing his side of things. We get to see him interact with Deneb for the opening scene. We get to see him run down Ryotaro verbally, to question the effectiveness of a Den-O that doesn't put Defend The Timeline first. We get to see Yuuto question the story's victim, only hearing at the end of the story that the guy already told it to Ryotaro. Everything in this episode is putting us in the headspace to agree with Yuuto. This becomes his show, and Den-O is the unreliable Secondary.

Even when we're into the second-half of the episode, with Sword Form trying to stop a monster in 2006, Ryotaro is still doing the Wrong Thing. Instead of chasing down the monster, he puts Momo on hold to check on the stunned couple. He's more invested in saving these two than he is in stopping the monster.

And then it's the first appearance of Zeronos: a stunning sequence of Henshins, catchphrases, form changes, hilarious non-boasts (Deneb doesn't want that monster to think the Vega chestpiece is a functioning head! He doesn't want to deceive the rampaging Jellyfish Imagin), and badass finishers. In an episode built to say Yuuto Is Right, that whole fight was the goddamn exclamation mark.

But he's not right. Or, he is, Yuuto was more effective than Ryotaro, but it doesn't matter? It's not about Most Effective or Least Effective. It's not a contest. It's about personal responsibility, and being the best version of yourself that you can be. Yuuto's metrics for success aren't Ryotaro's, and that's fine. Ryotaro is going to keep doing what he feels is right. He might do it badly, but as long as he's doing his best he can be proud of himself. He's going to help that couple. He's going to save Sakurai for Airi. Because that's what he thinks is right.

And Hana knows that Ryotaro's heroism being rooted in empathy, in the small picture of a grieving would-be husband looking for closure, that's what gives Den-O the power to save the day. The two of them digging up that time capsule and delivering it to that guy, to viewing that as the real victory of the episode, such a fantastic ending. To do a whole story about a new, better Rider who you then immediately see as second-best… surprisingly great story to tell.



THE BAGGAGE CAR

-The past-portion of this story took place fifteen years ago today! Happy Zeronos Debut Day, I guess! Let's all celebrate by getting mad at the people who care about us!

-Love that Zeronos suit, by the way. Super glad I ordered that new Seihou before I watched this show, 'cause I'm definitely going to want him on display. It's a little funny that he needed to be green, since that's about the only color that Den-O didn't end up using, but I think it works. I mean, I'm sure it's accidental, but having the envious Rider be green is a nice touch. The giant sword is great in Altair Form, and the Reassuring Shoulder Guns of Vega Form crack me up. Very cool suit, and a terrific fight sequence to introduce it.

[Deepsea]

Let me say this to start these are both very insightful and intelligent posts that not only make me appreciate den-o more, but also Kamen Rider in general more.

But also why did you divide these into two posts? what compelled you to do that?

(also expect a lot of bad jokes from me)