[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona

This is maybe my favourite episode in Den-O?

If someone forced me to pick only one, it'd probably be mine too? Like, as a single episode, it's hard to do better than this, and as I put it when I was rewatching the show, it's...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

the episode where I think I went from simply loving Den-O after Ryutaros showed up to being IN love with Den-O.

...Which is but one small line of a particularly glowing review. Knowing it's directed by Ishida explains a lot in retrospect, as always.

On an unrelated note, having it pointed out that the plot is similar to the debut of the best final form ever also explains a lot about why I like that episode of Ghost so much, even though I know Die didn't mean that as a compliment.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

On an unrelated note, having it pointed out that the plot is similar to the debut of the best final form ever also explains a lot about why I like that episode of Ghost so much, even though I know Die didn't mean that as a compliment.

Happy early-or-late birthday!

[Kurona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

On an unrelated note, having it pointed out that the plot is similar to the debut of the best final form ever also explains a lot about why I like that episode of Ghost so much, even though I know Die didn't mean that as a compliment.

Man, I can't exclaim enough how much I'm looking forward to Mugen's debut. I only just got to Grateful and yet I'm so impatient to get there!

[Androzani84]

And here we are on the debut for Climax Form. I hate it.

Not Climax Form itself, just the way it’s debut is handled. Mostly because it fails to tick any of the boxes I have for a good form debut.

Used to beat a monster giving the hero a hard time in battle: The Imagin wasn’t giving them a hard time. He only got away because Ryo got distracted mid-fight.

The monster has previously shrugged off everything thrown at it: Ryo never got to use anything on it, because, as said before, it kept getting away before a winner could be decided.

Debuts against a stronger opponent than previous ones: There is no way Bloodsucker is stronger than the previous opponents Den-O has faced, especially since all 4 versions of Den-O wiped out his buddies in Gaoh’s army with ease. If he was somehow more powerful than all of hem put together, than Gaoh wouldn’t have sent him to cause a distraction.

The hero has been on an emotional journey to receive it: Ryotaro almost losing the Imagin isn’t an emotional journey, it’s another Saturday on the Den-Liner.

Oh, and separate from the list, there is no logical reason their remains should’ve turned into a magic phone.

Heck, I basically realised while seeing this for the first time that it’s the same issue I have with OOO. He gets new combos that are supposed to be more powerful, but we never see just how powerful they are because the bad guys are the same old ones he’s been beating just fine without power-ups. The only one that clearly felt like a powerful was PuToTyra, with its “kill Greeed dead” ability… which was only used twice and might not have even been worth being there.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 28 - “TOO LUCKY, TOO EXCITED, TOO STRANGE”

Which, I don’t know if this is going to work for everyone. If you feel like they did a fake-out here, where the Imagin come back with a handwave and it’s all just a pointless cul-de-sac of a plot, I wouldn’t fight you on it. It’s a problem that comes mostly out of nowhere (Owner’s explanation for why everyone but Momo are getting dissolved is incredibly convoluted, and it feels pretty flimsy even for Time Magic), and it all wraps up due to Feelings. There’s a Ghost episode later in the run where Takeru drops dead and gets resurrected (with a new form?) all in one episode, and this one reminded me of that. It’s not a super-tight plot.

This one worked for me, though. I never thought the Imagin were gone for good. There’s like twenty episodes left! This show isn’t going to lose 75% of its merchandising opportunities with five months left to go! So the tension was less in If, and more in How the Imagin would come back. It being a situation where Ryotaro believed in them enough to allow Momo to ask them to come back, that all totally landed with me.

Because it’s Momo who does it. He answers the phone, he dials them back to life, he defeats the Imagin with their help. It’s a story that ends up being about how Momo needs these weirdos in his life, how it’s not the same without them around. It told me something new about Momo, so I’ll forgive it its imperfect plotting. This ended up being a nice extra climax for the last week’s worth of Den-O movie stuff, which is probably exactly how Momo would prefer it.

An episode of Ghost where Takeru dies and promptly revives with a new form? Can you be more specific?

Kidding, I know which one you're referring to. Even though there's this meta awareness that there's no way this can be the end, what makes it work is showing how the stakes matter for the characters. Takeru didn't just run out of time again, he was killed, something Yurusen previously said was impossible, and now Ryu might lose his afterlife as well. That's a crazy amount of pressure for the other characters who have to find a way to prevent that from happening. It's a very heavy episode and the escalation is abrupt.

The same applies to this episode of Den-O and it does the same thing that Ore Tanjou does by showing Momotaros actually caring and being depressed and it shows something that isn't always apparent, the fact that deep down, he has come to care about his fellow Imagin friends and is now having to deal with those feelings. It's fitting that what is essentially the Imagins' final form, is them literally coming together through Momotaros' sentimentality for a bunch of people who he used to merely tolerate, before it grew in to a very real camaraderie and friendship.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

-Climax Form! I think it’s very fun, and ALL HAIL TAKAIWA. The suit itself is this weird mishmash of heads, with maybe a little too much animation going on, but that dude kills in his performance. Seeing him switch from one Imagin to another inside of a shot, it’s art. He is an artist, and Climax Form is probably his masterpiece.

Agreed! Sato may be great at portraying Ryoutarou and the Imagins in human form, but Takaiwa is just as great at portraying them as Den-O. Very talented guy and I hope he continues to suit up occasionally in the Reiwa Era, either in KR or Sentai, like how he was Ryusoul Black in a flashback scene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurona

Man, I can't exclaim enough how much I'm looking forward to Mugen's debut. I only just got to Grateful and yet I'm so impatient to get there!

Our rewatches are pretty close then! I'm currently at the Alain redemption arc and I'm surprised by how my opinion of Makoto has improved since the first time. Like, he's the whole reason Takeru and Alain are even able to consider working together, the bridge between the humans and the Ganma. He's the MVP of the Grateful debut episode for sure!

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

Not Climax Form itself, just the way it’s debut is handled. Mostly because it fails to tick any of the boxes I have for a good form debut.

Sorry it didn't work for you!

For me, I sort of liked that it wasn't an upgrade that was about defeating a monster; it was an upgrade that was about how much more emotionally healthy these characters had become? So much of the metaphorical weight in this show is about how we accept and balance our emotions, and an upgrade that's down to Ryotaro and Momotaro understanding the value of the other Imagins... man, that feels like a pretty good point to introduce the Teamwork form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

The same applies to this episode of Den-O and it does the same thing that Ore Tanjou does by showing Momotaros actually caring and being depressed and it shows something that isn't always apparent, the fact that deep down, he has come to care about his fellow Imagin friends and is now having to deal with those feelings. It's fitting that what is essentially the Imagins' final form, is them literally coming together through Momotaros' sentimentality for a bunch of people who he used to merely tolerate, before it grew in to a very real camaraderie and friendship.

And after they were all so unhelpful when he was trying to learn how to swim during the Summer Vacation short! Momo's so heroically forgiving.

But yeah, I was not expecting the movie epilogue to be Momo Cares About His Friends! Pleasant surprise!

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sure, the Imagin are maybe a little overprotective of Hana here (plus I think they, rightly, are incredibly irritated by Ozaki), but we as the audience know that the Imagin aren't even a little off-base in their judgment of him. They aren't being mean to him because he's not the Most anything, other than Most Slimy. He's a creep, and they're treating him like a creep.

But, yeah, Hana's more than capable of standing up for herself, which was a nice part of that scene.

I have a thought of the Imagins being mean to him for him being not the most anything, because that's the words from Kintaros; "boring, plain, and trivial". The "beyond your reach" part can also count, as the phrase is usually uttered when someone unremarkable speaks to someone that is like, excels on anything positive and is respected or something. I know Ozaki refers to Hana as "Hana-chan" that Imagins assume him getting too familiar, though I feel that Imagins don't really look at him interacting with her before, and others such as Airi refering to her as Hana-chan too (they too recently met series-wise, not old friend or something), and I feel the Imagins can do this to anyone unremarkable based on their words. And my point of Hana wasn't her standing up for herself (what she did was smacking Imagins like usual), but defending Ozaki, some empowering for average people that aren't stand out, those should be treated equally in society.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 28 - “TOO LUCKY, TOO EXCITED, TOO STRANGE”

First of all, I want to praise the absolute brass balls on Kobayashi for debuting the brand-new Den-O form two episodes after the movie. The only debut Den-O form in that film was Sword Form Junior! And then the big Power Of Teamwork form shows up a fortnight later! On TV! For free! The stones of her to do that… amazing. It’s so counterintuitive that my head is still spinning. Unbelievable and surprising.

Actually, one episode after the movie. You watched the movie before episode 27 which means skipping ep. 27. The movie is set between 27 and 28, means 27.5, so one episode after the movie. And I've played the video games like Climax Heroes, so I know about this, but Den-O also likely started the trend of movie exclusive form (clue: Sieg).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I don’t know that the form would’ve been as cool outside this epilogue, though. I’m sure she could’ve cooked up some Voltron-style reason for the time-displaced Imagin to all combine in order to defeat Gaoh. It would’ve been fine, maybe even fun. But putting that suit here, and grounding it in how much Momo cares about the other Imagin? That’s some generous and fulfilling storytelling.

Well yeah, Gaoh can be beatable only by Sword Form, albeit with a help of other Den-O base forms (, a big enough threat for main antagonist role, but probably not the highest in threatening scale of him only being a counterpart to Sword Form. If you view Momo as caring about other Imagin, I guess he'd be a tsundere about this huh? Him claiming that the Imagins disappearing would be good for Ryotaro (he cares openly about Ryotaro), and that it'd create more space within the DenLiner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

This whole episode is pretty much just an epilogue to the film, addressing some bits of unfinished business. The remaining jewel thief and Imagin, the ones who eluded Yuuto last episode, are out causing some low-level mayhem. They’re a minor distraction in this story, to the degree that the action kicks off when Ryotaro remembers that he never went back to defeat the final Imagin because of the movie. (It’s incredibly fitting that Yuuto took the time after Gaoh was defeated to make Ryotaro go clean up Yuuto’s mess. Something something limited amount of Zeronos cards NOPE he just wanted to make Ryotaro do it.) There’s only comedic threat to these two adversaries; the thief is a total dope, and the Imagin never does much more than beat up some karate guys in a forest. They exist to get defeated, and they eventually do. They aren’t the obstacle, though.

The obstacle is that, in his brief bout of Narratively Convenient Amnesia, Ryotaro has severed his link with every Imagin except Momo. All of the various hangers-on are disappearing, and there’s nothing to be done to save them. Most of the episode is suffused with grief, as Ryotaro and Hana are powerless to save their friends.

One of the jewel thief are the starter villain of the movie, and I mean of course the next episodes would address the unfinished business if there's still 22 episodes left of this series! And you talk about Ryotaro cleaning up Yuuto's mess here, ironically, I forgot to talk about this before, but the version of Yuuto in the movie is far nicer and approachable than the one in the main series for you talking about him leaving a mess, he's just a bit more on the serious side, but he didn't act hostile to the others. Ryotaro's amnesia here is really a coninuation of the movie, and those who don't follow the movie can be confused here. And why are you ok with Ryotaro and Hana's powerlessness here of saving their friends? Sometimes you or people just criticize regardless of the stakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Momo, though…

Ryotaro obviously wouldn't feel right about his three teammates disappearing, I mean he obliges to save Kintaros by letting him contract with Ryotaro before, Ryotaro is the one who would like having more of the "pests" in the Imagin if it helps them. And Momo's stuff is more affecting and understated yeah, but I wouldn't want for Ryotaro to be turned like him just for the sake of the story to work with the theme. Momo's fiery demeanor for him to be vulnerable as a joke though and the pain, that's the thing Momo surely inherited from Ryotaro though, his inhuman bad luck, it transfers over to Momo. And yeah, the Imagins coming back with a handwave, that's Kobayashi doing show not tell.... I know you talk about it may be not working for others, but of course we know about how the Imagins won't be gone for good for middle of the series, but what matters is the process of them coming back, that it shouldn't violate the pre-established rule of the series. Not giving criticism of this part, but about the views of parts like this in general (I mean I can't give thoughts of this here because the Imagin mechanics aren't revealed yet).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-Climax Form! I think it’s very fun, and ALL HAIL TAKAIWA. The suit itself is this weird mishmash of heads, with maybe a little too much animation going on, but that dude kills in his performance. Seeing him switch from one Imagin to another inside of a shot, it’s art. He is an artist, and Climax Form is probably his masterpiece.

-If the Rider Kick that Den-O does in Climax Form isn’t called Climax Jump, I might need to quit watching these shows. They even played the theme song and everything! It’s too perfect!

Well, the Rider Kick in Climax Form ain't the best for me visually (and I would have an idea for it to be more pleasing, at least in my eyes). But the fun of Climax Form would be about, well, all the 4 Imagins being inside Ryotaro, and the power struggle to decide who controls the body or anything. It's when multiple individuals in 1 body are NOT fused, and it gives all the confusions you expect for multiple individuals in 1 body! And I look forward for it not only for the comedic effect, but about the real drawback of this kind of powerup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

-The plotting in this one is a little imprecise, but the only thing I went WAIT WHAT HOW at was when Deneb shows up at Milk Dipper to tell Yuuto about the disappearing Imagin. Who told Deneb? This isn’t some problem that the DenLiner crew needed anyone else’s help with. No one was expecting Yuuto to pitch in. How did Deneb hear about it? My only guess is a headcanon that Deneb and Naomi text constantly, gossiping about everything on the show.

Well, apart from your headcannon, the show obviously can't show everything in screen, there are many offscreen events happening. Deneb is also someone who does visit DenLiner if he wants to, and he can act independently outside of Yuuto, and get scolded for it due to Yuuto's cold, pragmatic approach.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

For me, I sort of liked that it wasn't an upgrade that was about defeating a monster; it was an upgrade that was about how much more emotionally healthy these characters had become?

Yeah, while I think that's a very good set of standards to hold form debuts to, there are times it's okay to break the rules, and I'll also give Den-O a bit of a waiver when it comes to the usually all-important comeback victory. It's just not a show even remotely interested in power levels or anything like that. Even Den-O's base forms are less about their unique situational abilities and more about their unique characters, so everything about Climax Form being rooted entirely in the emotions of the story, at the very least, is consistent with the show's style and themes.

You still get the emotional journey from Momo (and Die's write-up actually gave me the revelation that this is kinda his super mode, by the way?), and it also still hits that heroic second wind vibe in the process, despite the particular opponent Den-O is up against barely mattering. (And given the bit where Momo gets angry at the monster for interrupting his phone call, I think Kobayashi was VERY conscious of what she was doing there.)

[Switchblade]

So I've never been a huge fan of Climax form. It's just a little too busy for me with all of the colors and the double eyes. I like the gimmick behind it and the suit acting is great, but the design is just a bit of a mess.

As for the story? Weirdly forgettable. Like, I knew that Climax form was coming up, but I honestly did not remember anything about where it came from or how Ryotaro got it. Overall, we're kind of getting to that point where I start remembering the big events more than the specific stories.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Actually, one episode after the movie. You watched the movie before episode 27 which means skipping ep. 27. The movie is set between 27 and 28, means 27.5, so one episode after the movie.

I don't want to nitpick, but the movie hit theaters one day before Episode 27, so 28 is the second episode to air after the movie.

That said, I claimed it was a fortnight since the movie, when it was actually only eight days. I was thinking about it in terms of a week between the movie and 27, but that wasn't the case. Sorry for the only error this thread will have in it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

If you view Momo as caring about other Imagin, I guess he'd be a tsundere about this huh? Him claiming that the Imagins disappearing would be good for Ryotaro (he cares openly about Ryotaro), and that it'd create more space within the DenLiner.

Don't know what "tsundere" means (know it's an anime term; not an anime guy), but I think this is just Momo covering for the confusion of his own sadness. He never thought he cared about the other three Imagin, but now that they're dying he sees how he needs them around. He can't say that, so he acts tough and pretends like he won't miss them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And why are you ok with Ryotaro and Hana's powerlessness here of saving their friends? Sometimes you or people just criticize regardless of the stakes.

I'm okay with Ryotaro and Hana being powerless to save their friends because this is explicitly a story about only really understanding how much people mean when they're gone, so you should try to value them when they're around. If it's a story where Hana or Ryotaro are running around trying to prevent things, it's a different story entirely. Plus, it's all about how Momo is dealing with this, so two other characters saving the day changes the goals of the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Well, apart from your headcannon, the show obviously can't show everything in screen, there are many offscreen events happening. Deneb is also someone who does visit DenLiner if he wants to, and he can act independently outside of Yuuto, and get scolded for it due to Yuuto's cold, pragmatic approach.

But all it would take is a line of dialogue! When this story kicks off, it's because Ryotaro has to catch the final thief/Imagin. He's never shown to know that the villains are still out there, since only Zeronos was around for that part of the story. We never see the scene where Yuuto fills Ryotaro in, because that much screentime is unnecessary: just toss in a line where Ryotaro says that Yuuto filled him in, done. You don't have to show everything, but you have to acknowledge in the narrative how characters obtain information relevant to the plot. Unless Deneb is watching the same episodes of Den-O that we are, I'm not sure how he learned about the disappearing Imagin, and the show doesn't give any clues to help the viewer fill in that blank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

(And given the bit where Momo gets angry at the monster for interrupting his phone call, I think Kobayashi was VERY conscious of what she was doing there.)

One of the best gags in the episode. Momo is trying to resurrect his friends through a magical cellphone! He doesn't have time to deal with this monster right this second! I'm pretty sure I also shouted DUDE SHUT UP at my TV during that fight!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

So I've never been a huge fan of Climax form. It's just a little too busy for me with all of the colors and the double eyes. I like the gimmick behind it and the suit acting is great, but the design is just a bit of a mess.

I can see that. In the moment, I'm very into the story that suit is telling, but aesthetically... not my thing. Not a figure I'm rushing out to buy.