[cosmicrescend0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

You have to doubt someone first, before you can sincerely believe in them.

Cool analysis highlighting the relationship between Tsukuyomi/Geiz and Sougo! Never would've thought of it that way...

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Originally Posted by Daikaijuman54

Am I the only one who thinks Zi-O II is too OP at this stage in the show?

I mean. Isn't that the point? It's the next major step to becoming Oma-Zi-O, Woz even says Zi-O II is the form used on the Day of Oma? Makes sense to me!

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 22 - ?STRONGEST ZI-O! 2019?

And not for the Zi-O II stuff, although I imagine that?s what most people are going to want to talk about. I think it?s a neat costume, the designers just doubling everything up: two sets of watch-hand antennae, two sets of watchbands forming a tabard, all of it. I like how it feels like a step towards Oma Zi-O?s design, this slightly more regal appearance of Sougo?s. I mostly like how it?s Sougo himself becoming more powerful, since this isn?t some other Rider?s power he?s stacking onto his own. It?s just him, getting more unstoppable.

Zi-O II is a real game changer though, it's not merely Sougo becoming more powerful, it's something that is outright horrific. Firstly, Zi-O II has a look that resembles Ohma Zi-O, by how Sougo now accepts his evil impulses inside that he was denial about. Then even holding it in his hand allows Sougo to casually reset the timeline to rewind it so Geiz survives. That's how Sougo becomes more powerful now, it creates a situation that was unthinkable before in others; Tsukuyomi, someone who previously is compassionate enough to had faith in Sougo (also claims it in this episode) and helped him from the start, freaks out at seeing this, and is the opposite one to what she said regarding good influence Sougo had to Geiz, she's now the one suggesting to kill Sougo here. And then White Woz, who is even more unfazed and unflappable than Black Woz in a more sinister way in his more ruthless schemes, had his composure broken here, he's outright livid to shake Black Woz for answers and then retreats leaving Geiz behind, losing his absolute control of the future and likely he just gave the dictator he's trying to stop even greater power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Ryuki was a show about how difficult it can be to truly know other people, but how necessary it was to try anyway. We become better versions of ourselves by seeing things from other perspectives, and trying to understand other people. Learning why someone else values something can have us examining our own value system. Discovering someone?s hidden traumas can help us to understand our own unresolved issues. Asking questions is more important than getting answers, because there are always more questions to ask. It was a show that never wanted people to settle for certainty, because there?s no such thing as being absolutely certain.

So we get this wonderful story about how the Time Orphans have grown as people thanks to Sougo, but still manage to get blindsided when he?s more complicated than they thought. They?ve seen his outward actions ? his generosity, his enthusiasm ? and put him up on a pedestal. Sougo?s always good. Sougo always does the right thing. Sougo?d never consider harming someone for the greater good. Geiz and Tsukuyomi can put all of their faith in Sougo, because he?s the best of them

It's the opposite, Geiz has grown as person thanks to Sougo... but Tsukuyomi takes turn to be more drastic here thanks to Sougo. But this also has a part of miscommunication that Sougo claims he has accepts his dark side, but that creates a misunderstanding that Sougo really is tampering in people?s lives and with time on a whim and has accepted that he?ll become Oma Zi-O. It's good to seeing things from other perspectives and understanding others better, but it can be misused too by instead justifying other people who had gone bad due to the hidden traumas, while ignoring those who are wronged due to that. The asking questions part is sometimes just used as a weakness for people like Shinji who'd want the best outcome for anyone that it'd make them hesitate more, the hard choices that can put others at disadvantage. There are compromises, but the important thing should be not deliberately harming the unlucky few to achieve something or in the name of priority, if there are those that are unlucky it should only happen due to already taking care of someone else and not being biased.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But we all hide things. Sougo?s confusion at Geiz being down on himself for contemplating killing Shinji is reasonable, you know? Defeating Ryuga seems impossible, and here?s a possible solution. Both Sougo and Geiz immediately discard it, because it?s evil, but they?re not evil for considering it. Sougo?s a three-dimensional character in this story, even if he isn?t always portrayed that way in others. He always does the right thing, but that means discarding the wrong thing first. He won?t let Geiz sacrifice himself, but he knows what stopping Geiz means as far as defeating Ryuga goes. He can be good, because he?s overcoming his own capacity for evil.

This addresses on how someone like Sougo can turn into genocidal warlord like Ohma Zi-O, because Sougo has a hidden dark side that he's in denial about, of which it grows bigger and bigger until that side fully consumes him. While everyone may have hidden darker impulses, moral fortitude is something that decides if they can hold onto their moral principles more strongly than others, and Sougo would have weaker one than some other KR characters, to lose into his dark side eventually as Ohma Zi-O. Now though Sougo accepts it's a part of himself, it's probably a work on him strengthening his moral fortitude, so he'd know he had the dark side but he'd try harder to not let himself succumb to it. Working on moral fortitude is likely the key to prevent Ohma Zi-O's rule.

Otherwise, while people can be complicated or having multiple sides, there can be still those who are more good, more evil, or more neutral than others, it's a mistake to only cherry-pick an action like a single moral act and use that as an argument to equalize everyone's moral spectrum of 'everyone has good and bad', usually used to talk down heroes in favor of the villains they justify. Someone should be looked at bigger picture to evaluate if they're doing more good or more bad (not good/bad outcome for here, like villainous organizations creating the birth of heroic Kamen Riders with its invention). For Sougo here, he had the capacity of evil but his goods far outweigh the bad more, but that's the root of his rise to Ohma Zi-O which still should be taken into account.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I mean, what better way could there be to show my appreciation for one of my absolute favorite Zi-O episodes, right?

This was really lovely! Thank you so much for sharing it!

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Dark Sougo is obviously a bad person and an a**hole, but he possesses a sense of self that Sougo was lacking. He does the opposite of what Tsukuyomi did, by telling Sougo how much he sucks and how he's totally going to become evil in the future. It's not what Sougo wants to hear, but it's what he needs to hear. Being told reassuring things and praise too often can make a person complacent, so I think it's important to hear constructive criticism instead of pretending those unpleasant things aren't real.

I think it's also that Sougo needs to stop thinking of Oma Zi-O as some single bad decision he might make someday, but instead as a series of conscious choices he's making daily. There's a part of him that could become that villain, and it won't happen in an instant. Dark Sougo is always going to be there, in a way, so Sougo needs to find some way to stop avoiding that part of himself and figure out how to make something positive out of it. Which, you're right, can lead to some helpful introspection and self-analysis.

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Originally Posted by Daikaijuman54

Am I the only one who thinks Zi-O II is too OP at this stage in the show?

Maybe a little, but I have faith in this show (like every Kamen Rider Heisei show) to both forget about Zi-O II's power level when it's inconvenient to the plot, as well as very quickly introduce villains who are even more ludicrously powerful. It's the Circle of Toku!

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Now though Sougo accepts it's a part of himself, it's probably a work on him strengthening his moral fortitude, so he'd know he had the dark side but he'd try harder to not let himself succumb to it. Working on moral fortitude is likely the key to prevent Ohma Zi-O's rule.

Pretty much! A lot of Sougo's arc so far is him not only gaining the power of Oma Zi-O, but also becoming more cognizant of how serious the temptation of power is. Like I was talking about above, this story is Sougo having to accept that he has the capacity for evil in a broader sense than just Gotta Be On Best Behavior On Oma Day. People can make bad decisions constantly, for any reason, and it's important to understand that. Sougo's power as Zi-O II draws from both Zi-O and Oma Zi-O - two Zi-O's, you might say - and that's a tricky line to walk.

[Daikaijuman54]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Maybe a little, but I have faith in this show (like every Kamen Rider Heisei show) to both forget about Zi-O II's power level when it's inconvenient to the plot, as well as very quickly introduce villains who are even more ludicrously powerful. It's the Circle of Toku!

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

I mean. Isn't that the point? It's the next major step to becoming Oma-Zi-O, Woz even says Zi-O II is the form used on the Day of Oma? Makes sense to me!

Yeah, I know it's par for the course in Tokusatsu. Maybe it's the fact that he can rewind time and gaze into the future is a pretty big cheat compared to other Riders. Does it make sense? Yes. But my main issue pretty much stems later in the shows run, which is why I bring it up.

Not hating on Zi-O II, it's a neat idea, but power levels can be pretty bonkers at times, and I'd usually save something like this for later, but hey, it's still fun.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 23 - “IT’S KIKAI! 2121”



We’re back in Future Rider territory, and it’s a bit of a mixed bag.

I liked the stuff with Kikai, the same as probably everyone else. They went for a terrifically goofy late-Showa vibe to everything (Rento’s all-denim outfit! With bell bottoms!) and it was the right move. Rento himself is a stalwart defender of humanity and a friend to children, with a charming lack of guile. And as much fun as it was to see Rento walk stiffly and smile slightly unnervingly, it was equally entertaining to watch Kamen Rider Kikai full-on punch an old lady in the face. I mean, it was a killer robot old lady, but it still looked pretty funny. Really good time hanging out in 2121.

And I also liked it for how it slowly built out this episode’s theme of How Can We Trust Something Dangerous. That’s the trouble Team Zi-O (which is, uh, pretty much just Sougo and Geiz this episode) is having with Zi-O II’s recent creation. In the future, Rento is sworn to protect humanity, but there’s a part of him that could become evil and destructive. It’s the same thing in the present, as Geiz has to decide between putting his faith in Sougo’s ability to be a force for good, or siding with Tsukuyomi’s newfound bloodlust/realism. We’re in a story where everyone’s just a little bit afraid of someone else’s power.

The rest of the episode was a weird mix of character plotting I’m not totally on-board with (yet?), and comedic storytelling that’s right up my alley.

The specific struggle between Geiz’z belief in Sougo and Tsukuyomi’s pragmatism/impatience feels less an outgrowth of recent events than some writerly shift towards Internal Conflict, and I’d need a lot more from Tsukuyomi than I’ve gotten to buy into it. For someone who traveled back in time specifically to avert a time execution, she’s uncharacteristically all-in on killing Sougo immediately. There’s for sure a story to tell about Tsukuyomi reconsidering her beliefs, but we haven’t been given the incremental beats of the story that Geiz got for his arc. I’m okay with this story as some bump in the road for the team dynamic, but it’s not exactly hitting the Geiz/Sougo heights of Episode 16.

The comedy parts, though! Those were great! Coming back to Sougo’s established Terrible Math Skills as the bridge to get him dozing off and seeing the future was great, but Geiz’z Helicopter Time Dad stuff was even better. He’s so mad when he thinks Sougo is cheating on a test! He’s so mad when Sougo isn’t studying hard enough! It’s adorable!

(I don’t 100% believe in Tsukuyomi’s turn on Sougo – she’s scared, I get that, but she is all WHY HAVEN’T YOU MURDERED SOUGO YET GEIZ in basically every scene here, without bothering to sketch out why she’s so insistent – but I kinda loved how she’s the new Grim Executioner to Geiz’z Time Dad this episode. Geiz trying desperately to get Sougo to take his education seriously, while Tsukuyomi schemes to kill Zi-O… it’s a cute switch-up, even if half of it lacks explanation.)

I’m hoping the larger arc stuff for Team Zi-O clears up more in the next episode, but if it doesn’t? We still got a fun story about putting your faith in something dangerous, some great action sequences, a clever Another Rider (wood is the opposite of metal, I guess), some funny gags, and the Time Orphans sort of continuously creating Oma Zi-O, no matter what they do. (Woz at the end pointing out that emotionally isolating Sougo and trying to destroy him is a pretty great way to make a genocidal despot!) It wasn’t a perfect episode, but I had a good time with it.

[Enchilada645]

I'll be real, I don't really like what they did with Tsukuyomi in this like set of episodes... despite her fear it felt too... jarring? I feel that's the right word. That being said I absolutely loved all of Geiz's bits this episode, real good stuff.

That being said, Kikai is my absolute favorite of the Mirai Riders. He's got a fun personality, he's played by the dude who played Reboot Kikaider in the Kikaider Reboot/Special Episode of Gaim, and he's got a fun somewhat fleshed out backstory. I mean a yellow armored and red eyed mechanical rider fighting to stop a mechanical menace? That's the kind of show I'd totally watch!

Also the fact that he uses the Guardian Grunt suit from Build as a base was a real good decision. Just like... it gives him such a different and unique feel and it's absolutely my favorite design.

We're onto the BGM Preview again, we've got the Kikaider Preview theme which is still my favorite BGM Swap of the bunch. And Future Guardian which... I probably would never use as a BGM Swap unless I was absolutely forced to.

Zero's Legend Episode Previews Corner - EP 24 Preview:

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

I'll be real, I don't really like what they did with Tsukuyomi in this like set of episodes... despite her fear it felt too... jarring? I feel that's the right word.

It's jarring, for sure. I gave it a pass at the end of Episode 22, because I figured we'd get an explanation for it here. Instead, when we see Tsukuyomi for the first time in this episode, she's already teamed up with Hat Woz and is hassling Geiz about not offing Sougo yet. There's no insight into her decision-making or psychology, which is, like, the bare minimum that a turn like this requires.

The other big problem - and, arguably, the bigger problem - is that it takes a Tsukuyomi development that fundamentally alters her character's relationship with Sougo and goes Wow I Wonder How This Is Affecting Geiz. It immediately pivots the story onto Geiz having to choose between his two friends, and that's super lame. We've gotten stories before about Geiz choosing Sougo over his mission! Let us have the Tsukuyomi/Sougo version of that story!

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Originally Posted by Enchilada645

he's played by the dude who played Reboot Kikaider in the Kikaider Reboot/Special Episode of Gaim

Ha ha, I wondered if he was! He looked familiar, but I didn't go look it up. Stealth Heisei Rider tribute!

[DreamSword]

Kikai is the best Future Rider, fite me.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Kikai is the best Future Rider, fite me.

He's pretty neat!

[cosmicrescend0]

Zenryoku Zen-ah wait. got my wires crossed, wrong Kikai hero! Onto Episode 23!

-Love everything related to the "Sougo tries to cheat on his exams using his future sight, backfiring terribly" gag. The bit where Geiz chastises hin on the dangers of flunking? Too good..

-My favorite Future Rider is here!!!! I absolutely adore Kikai. Really fun concept for the future, with a very sweet protag to match! (Theres something about having a robot as a protag that always excites me?)* Makes me wish this got a Rider Time like Shinobi.....

-Tsukuyomi's with White Woz now. She doesnt really add anything to her argument that wasnt in last ep, and thats kinda furstrating? At least tell me something interesting will happen with the status quo being slightly altered....

-Dear God. Forgot about the CGI bug running around during this arc. I dont like it, not one bit.