[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by TheRaizin

I like this concept that Sougo's kingly dreams drove everything 'normal' to him away. A normal life, a normal dream, a normal childhood, normal friends, everything. The fact that he had a childhood robot toy as his only friend and later became an alternate future with his powers is kinda sad. You dreamt up your toy to become your friend?

It's an incredibly bittersweet ending to the Kikai plot, despite it being possibly fictitious. That moment when Rento tells Sougo that they'll always be best friends, and Sougo's like What, and it's clear that Rento was just the part of Sougo that's impossibly lonely and feels like an outcast. Just a heartbreaker, that note.

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Originally Posted by FreshToku

Like, one of them gets turned into the Another Rider this episode and that sounds like it should maybe be a big deal but it's so absolutely not.

I'm still a fan of Tsukuyomi, despite this dumb plot, but I cannot say the same for the Time Jackers! I, uh, completely didn't mention their weird Time Jerks plot! It was interesting for a minute, when Ora maybe cared about Heure, but then the show's like Ha Ha NOPE and Ora's the same duplicitous scumbag as Swartz. Awesome twist! Completely negated my brief interest in Ora's character!

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

But in the end, those touched by Rento's' kindness still have faith in him and his better half, allowing the gap to be bridged, showing that Sogo has that same sort of faith in not only himself, but in Geiz and Tsukuyomi as well. It's really touching and is especially powerful to me specifically as someone who's currently in friendships with people that have mental health issues, or heck, just plain had fights with people over whatever reason.

There's a bit in this episode that's sweet and sad and beautiful, when Sougo tells those kids that he's in fight with his friends, but it'll get better soon.

It's kind of a stupidly optimistic thing to say. Tsukuyomi wants to kill Sougo, and she's making a somehow-not-terrible case that's getting Geiz'z reluctant support. This isn't some brief row; this is a conspiracy to commit murder.

But it's Sougo, and this is how he sees things. The Time Orphans are his friends, and they'll all be friends again. He doesn't know why they're mad at him, exactly. He's not working to patch things up. But they're friends, forever, and he trusts that they'll figure that out, just like he did.

It's the sort of... like, these are the only friends Sougo's ever had. The idea that friendships can end, even if you don't want them to, it's literally not in his brain. So he just doesn't give up on Geiz and Tsukuyomi. Just like with Geiz earlier in the season, it doesn't matter if Tsukuyomi doesn't think they're friends anymore, because Sougo is still her friend. It's a heartbreaking amount of naivete, but it's really beautiful.

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Originally Posted by Enchilada645

It's absolutely tragic is what it is, and that tragedy is likely what sort of pushed Sougo onto that path of Oma Zi-O as a person when it comes to his actions in basically making Earth a wasteland by the time of 2068. And that's what makes Oma Zi-O all the more interesting for me. You see sort of like, the clues and the small nudges in Sougo's life that leads him towards the person he eventually becomes. But the thing is... we're very far removed from the initial path because of Geiz and Tsukuyomi, even if things are rough right now. They've had influence and impact on Sougo and it'll be interesting to see where it leads.

For sure. The Sougo that never met the Time Orphans, it's easy to see him being so disconnected from other people that he'd consider a partial global genocide to be a pretty nice way of ruling the planet. But just by coming back in time and entering Sougo's life, the Time Orphans have helped create the conditions for a more heroic Sougo... who they are now trying to murder.

Friendships, man! Shit can get complicated!

[cosmicrescend0]

It's Episode 24!

-Very lovely for the show to express another form of Sougo using his time-warping powers unconciously while concluding the "Cheating on your exams with time powers" joke with all the questions on the exam being the ones Sougo dreamt about.

-Tsukuyomi.......You all have essentially said what I've been thinking about her in this arc, (The Tsukuyomi Zone is *such* a good term, going to use that from now on!) so here's another tangent: I really like the dinner scene with White Woz and the kids? Not because of the conversation that took place, just how sharply the vibe contrasts with the mealtime scenes at 9-to-5. Sure, they often a lot in those scenes, and I have no clue how good Uncle's cooking is compared to White Woz's, but like! It's home for these guys! A lovely place they can all come back to after Rider Kicking all day! I'm not really good at expressing my feelings about the visual direction of a episode other than "woah, pretty neat!", but like. I always remember the eating scenes in 9-to-5 would often use angles where you can see everyone at the table? Whereas this scene often has a lot of cutting back to Tsuku, Geiz, Tsuku in focus, now Geiz's in focus! Not really sure that was the intention, but it just makes the vibe feel a whole lot colder, yknow?

-We got our first bit of Time Jacker "drama", past their occasional squabbling. Using one of their own just seems like a better idea than grabbing any civilian off the street, but what do I know? My general thoughts on the Time Jackers on my inital watch was that they always felt like "This show needs villians, i guess." They're always there but they don't do much and aren't very interesting.....This time around, I hope I can get even a speck more of apperication for them.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

I always remember the eating scenes in 9-to-5 would often use angles where you can see everyone at the table? Whereas this scene often has a lot of cutting back to Tsuku, Geiz, Tsuku in focus, now Geiz's in focus! Not really sure that was the intention, but it just makes the vibe feel a whole lot colder, yknow?

Yeah, the Hat Woz dinner scene is something I was really looking forward to, because it was a chance to get to hear Tsukuyomi's side of things, away from monster battles and whatnot. Didn't-- didn't really go how I wanted it! But there's some neat staging there, where they're split by the flowers and staring down at their plates. It's immediately clear that neither of them are particularly happy with the current status quo, even if Geiz is the only one willing to point out how unnecessary it is.

(He also does this pouty thing where he ducks the lower half of his face into his collar, and it's adorably uncomfortable. Geiz is not good with expressing his emotions! Or advocating for literally anything besides sacrificing himself!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

Using one of their own just seems like a better idea than grabbing any civilian off the street, but what do I know?

Maybe y'all can help me out with this, because I mostly didn't get the Kikai Watch stuff.

So, Swartz sticks the Another Kikai facehugger onto Heure, to give the Another Kikai form some solidity. Another Riders need host bodies. But, twist, Ora is working with Team Hat Woz (Guest-Starring Zi-O) in order to create a Kikai Watch... that she promptly uses on Heure to make the exact same Another Kikai that they had before the fight got started.

I... what? Why was the Time Jacker plan to create a watch that was the equivalent of the monster that already existed?

[Kamen Rider Die]

This was pretty much me after Tsukuyomi tried to explain why it was cool to team up with a dude who has been manipulating them for weeks and has any number of ulterior motives under his hat, but they need to murder their good friend and staunch ally right now because he might be a real problem at some point in the future.

[cosmicrescend0]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Maybe y'all can help me out with this, because I mostly didn't get the Kikai Watch stuff.

1)The facehugger is some unknown entity spawned from some kid's dream. Sure, you can take the hugger and go about your plan, but isn't that a bit too unpredictable? It could suddenly run off someday, or start turning into a hamster instead of a Another Rider? What if it suddenly dies? What if it turns on them? It's much safer having the Rider's power in a easy to use/control form of a Ridewatch.

2) *shrugs* Ridewatches are important, man. As well as the "easier way to utilize a Rider's power," i guess we're supposed to assume there's an equally important reason the Time Jackers need thos Ridewatches specifically (as opposed to backing already existing Riders to be King or whatever) as much as White Woz needs the future-flavored ones, or something like that?

[gashatfreak]

Kikai being a manifestation of Sougo wanting a friend is bittersweet, but what's with the human extinction plot? Did Sougo subconsciously want to burn society or something? I mean, if so then Ohma Zi-O suddenly makes a lot of sense.

[Androzani84]

I was going to discuss the idea that all the MiRiders are reflections of Sougo’s issues, but part of it gets super spoilery, so I’ll hold off. Instead, I’ll discuss how they all embody the aspects of a Kamen Rider.

Shinobi embodies the aspect of justice from evil, being given an inherently evil power set, yet choosing to do good with it.

Quiz embodies the tough choices some of them have to make, and whether their solutions are the right answer.

And finally Kikai is the friend to children and protector of smiles.

Phew. Thank god we didn’t end up going with TN watches Zi-O. This was my first choice and I definitely didn’t have much to say. Anyway, join us next time for an Another Rider somebody guessed back when episode 3 came out.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmicrescend0

2) *shrugs* Ridewatches are important, man. As well as the "easier way to utilize a Rider's power," i guess we're supposed to assume there's an equally important reason the Time Jackers need thos Ridewatches specifically (as opposed to backing already existing Riders to be King or whatever) as much as White Woz needs the future-flavored ones, or something like that?

They have a very locked-in aesthetic, and they'll sacrifice anything to keep their collection from veering away from the baseline. I admire their curatorial dedication! Would that my own collections were as rigorously designed...

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Originally Posted by gashatfreak

Kikai being a manifestation of Sougo wanting a friend is bittersweet, but what's with the human extinction plot? Did Sougo subconsciously want to burn society or something? I mean, if so then Ohma Zi-O suddenly makes a lot of sense.

I took it as Sougo seeing himself as an outcast, but one who fears his own power. He wants to protect people, but secretly worries he might be endangering them. A dream where Everyone's In Danger feels like the kind of stress dream he'd have.

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Originally Posted by Androzani84

Phew. Thank god we didn?t end up going with TN watches Zi-O. This was my first choice and I definitely didn?t have much to say.

I'm sure you would've had plenty to contribute! Don't sell yourself short.

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZI-O EPISODE 24 - ?BEST FRIEND 2121?

Now, I really don?t think the show is saying that Sougo?s created Geiz and Tsukuyomi. Metaphorically, I?m not sure it?d help this show to make two of Sougo?s most trusted friends (and, uh, Woz, I guess) into figments of his imagination. Maybe, but it?s difficult. But right now, I kinda like Geiz and Tsukuyomi being slightly unmoored by Sougo?s reality-altering powerset, and how even positive desires ? like friendship ? can have negative consequences when it?s the desire of a god.

Previously, Sougo has come into terms for his inner dark side, but actually this episode now proves again that Sougo wants to become a benevolent overlord. Though the main trio are now conflicted, Sougo still thinks of them as friends when asked who they're, and his actions later were pleading Geiz to save Tsukuyomi even if it results in his future demise. He then protects the children refugees after Kikai went rogue, and saving Kikai later. And it's not like Sougo creates Geiz and Tsukuyomi, the Sougo creating thing only happened when he obtained Zi-O II. Actually his creation is probably the alternate timeline White Woz came from, also coming from his previous dream about Shinobi turning into Kamen Rider, which creates Geiz Revive timeline. The previous Mirror Sougo was about Sougo likely scheming to become Ohma Zi-O, but Geiz Revive timeline may exist because he desperately wants to avoid becoming Ohma Zi-O to the point where he wants someone to kill him. Where now the next dream he does is Kikai via his subconscious fears and stresses about his friends abandoning him, and he unknowingly created that monster now.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

There?s a bit in this episode where Tsukuyomi and Geiz are bickering over Tsukuyomi?s irritating insistence on asking When Are We Going To Get To The Murdering Sougo Factory at all times, and Geiz asks her if she?s seriously willing to trust Hat Woz. She responds that there?s no time to be choosy about where they get help. It?s? I got SO MAD at that response. Her insane point is that it?s okay to trust in Hat Woz?z mysterious motivations, because it?s expedient, but trusting in Sougo ? who, to date, has only used his Terrifying New Power to, uh, save Geiz?z life ? is ludicrous. It?s a terrible argument in favor of executing a friend, and that was the point where I gave up on Tsukuyomi?s current plotline making any sense to me. Just gonna assume she?s the Mirror Tsukuyomi, who destroys friendships and hates empathy. It?s easier for me that way.

I just realized, is your gripe with Tsukuyomi here, a similar one to your gripe on Yuuji's turn on Faiz's finale (Yuuji was outright villainous though)? For her here, wanting to grow out of Time Mom phase (no, this isn't something that I use here to compare with Yuuji), but instead is done on the worst way? But anyway I've said that Tsukuyomi is one of the most hated character in the franchise (t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶s̶e̶v̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶F̶i̶s̶h̶ ̶d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶a̶g̶a̶i̶n̶s̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶h̶o̶w̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶u̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶o̶r̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶u̶r̶n̶s̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶), probably you now should understand that better, if not for some episodes before. But as I said before this is real life, writer stuff problem. I guess I understand the complaint here as while Sougo as Zi-O II is terrifying, even as he didn't save Geiz's life, but Tsukuyomi's own life here too, but it's potentially about Sougo shaping the future as he wishes, White Woz is somehow free from suspicions and is apparently viewed as better in her eyes. I mean, she actually was appropriately suspicious for Black Woz before! Whose affable personality is at least genuine and didn't go for the lengths White Woz had! I don't know if White Woz is also meant to conceal his sinister side like Kusaka does in Faiz to the supporting cast, but that'd also meant the series did poor job for White Woz too.

Though other than the Sougo stuff here, regarding Junichiro talking about Sougo being lonely other than the time orphans (Geiz starting from ep. 15) as real friends, Tsukuyomi was still completely amiable and courteous to Junichiro, appreciating him and bowing while thanking him, which is something that is clearly retrained from previous Tsukuyomi portrayals (for "Mirror Tsukuyomi"). There's something worse about Sougo losing his 2 real friends for now, actually it's potentially a self-fulfilling prophecy Tsukuyomi pulled out of fear, that Sougo would be left with Black Woz, which although a friend and helper for Sougo, he wants to create Ohma Zi-O, so Black Woz is essentially Sougo's corruptor (there can be toxic friend influence!) and he'd be more susceptible to that, now by expanding Sougo's dark side inside (which although there, is tiny now to his good) as he accepted it now.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I'm still a fan of Tsukuyomi, despite this dumb plot, but I cannot say the same for the Time Jackers! I, uh, completely didn't mention their weird Time Jerks plot! It was interesting for a minute, when Ora maybe cared about Heure, but then the show's like Ha Ha NOPE and Ora's the same duplicitous scumbag as Swartz. Awesome twist! Completely negated my brief interest in Ora's character!

Have no place to talk about the Time Jackers above thus would be here... Though it may not sit well with you, yeah, Ora is intended to be a total scumbag, not on Swartz's level, but still one. I̶ ̶h̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶(̶s̶e̶c̶o̶n̶d̶a̶r̶y̶)̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶o̶i̶n̶e̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶Z̶i̶-̶O̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶m̶a̶j̶o̶r̶ ̶f̶e̶m̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶s̶m̶h̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶r̶y̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶E̶n̶g̶l̶i̶s̶h̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶l̶a̶n̶g̶u̶a̶g̶e̶. It wouldn't be a writing problem like the dumb plot about Tsukuyomi, it's intentional. It's a running pattern for Ora that she does doing something nice for someone else, it's either because the action directly benefits her personally or a setup to make the other person drop their guard so that she can do something absolutely horrendous. She's a sociopath who sees everything or everyone around her as a means to an end and is capable of feigning empathy to manipulate the people around her. She kickstarted the plot here by mainpulating the heroes that eventually had her getting to know Another Kikai's password from Tsukuyomi and helped with Geiz's hesitation she snatched the Watch and killed Tsukuyomi in the process. It's foiled by Sougo's Zi-O II powers though.

[Daikaijuman54]

I liked this arc, mostly because of Kikai, but the Zi-O portion was nice too.

I love how Kikai's year is 2121, signifying he's the 150th anniversary of Kamen Rider, which is funny since he feels so much like a Showa Rider with a helping of other Ishinomori Heroes, like Kikaider, even the Driver sounds Showa! It's also fun how he only appears in dreams, and Sougo imagined him much like Shinobi back when French Woz debuted. Not to mention his design, while a remodel of the Guardians from Build (which were great suits on their own), but it's a fun design that invokes retro robots with a dash of modernity.

Speaking of design, it's interesting how real (or I guess in this case dream?) Kikai is a machine, while Another Kikai looks like a tree, the complete opposite of Kikai in just about every aspect in how it's completely organic, straight down to the fact that it's some weird alien thing instead of just planting the Ridewatch into somebody.

I will admit, the Zi-O portion isn't as good as some of the other Zi-O portions for previous (and future) episodes, but it was nice. Sougo constantly trying to stay awake to finish exams before ultimately falling asleep, then when he's needed to sleep so he can find out if Kikai has any weaknesses, he just can't seem to sleep (which reminds me of the dream arc in W), was pretty funny. Though the Time Jackers are almost always a mixed bag in the story, with Swartz just not being the guy you would trust even if he's your own teammate, kind of works for the role of Villain he sits in, though so far, they're pretty much just Sentai Villains without the quirks in human form.