[Kurona]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

No offense, but agree to disagree is pretty essential for any healthy discussion and debate.

That's why I said that, because that's not a discussion or a debate for me. I'd also rather not turn off notifications for the sake of avoiding one topic when it's useful to me otherwise.

Also, uh, I like Reika! In fact at this point when I was watching the show she was the single Saber character I was actively enjoying! I just heavily dislike this one trait she's given from this point on (and in fact like her a lot in future specials where she's far away from Durandal and hence gets to be a fun character).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Also, we're in a phase of the show (probably for good) where there aren't many outside perspectives to borrow, and that's where I feel most comfortable writing. I don't 100% get all these guys yet, and twists can end up making previous writing feel off, so it's easier for me if I can create a little more from outside observation. With Mei, she can have a slightly less rigid perspective than an SoL guy, which suits me just fine.

Have to say, despite that, you've been doing a pretty good job nailing this so far! The one time lack of future knowledge failed you is when you perfectly note-for-note predicted the plot of a future spin-off! You've seriously jelled with these characters in such an on-point way

[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER SABER EPISODE 29 - ?HIS TIME IS NOW, THE SWORDSMAN ENTERS THE FRAY?

For Rintaro, the Sword of Logos was a family, a job, and an organizing principle for his sense of right and wrong. Acts that supported the guild were moral; acts that went against the guild were immoral. Rintaro loved the people inside the guild who brought purpose to his life, and in doing so he loved the guild.

The transference of that love ? how we imbue organizations with the same affection we gave to the people inside that organization ? is a Big Deal topic for Saber as a show. There?s a cognitive load that comes with having to consider a mass of people as individuals, so it?s easier to think of them as part of a larger whole. But, at a certain point, we think of the whole instead of the people within it, and we start to value those people less. The Sword of Logos mattered more to Rintaro than his friends, despite his friends essentially being the Sword of Logos. Reika and Master Logos, they aren?t what Rintaro respected or loved about the Sword of Logos. Rintaro?s respect is for a dead master, and a delightful selection of apostates at the North Pole. We shouldn?t ever really love an organization, because an organization can?t love us back. An organization doesn?t have a morality to it, so it can?t teach us right from wrong. An organization is not a person, and it isn?t worth more than a person.

Rintaro suspects Reika as the traitor when he reports to Master Logos. Hmm... spending your time turning the group against each other and accusing others as traitor, and ends up making themselves look like the acutal traitor. Where do I have seen that? It's kinda ironic that, Rintaro's the one who got to learn the real traitor in SoL, despite him being the one who tries to prevent anyone else from going on that path, by simply directly talking to Master Logos. Makes me wonder why was Kamijo going on power hungry path for years to seek out the traitor that Rintaro only got a simple solution of. Rintaro's gotta be the one to tell others about this information as he rejoins his friends, him being the one who succeeded in doing Kamijo and Touma's job despite being the one not wanting to.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It?s probably the hardest thing Rintaro?s ever done, screaming on that parking garage floor about the Sword of Logos being bullshit. (Very nice of Durendal to check his phone or whatever while that deeply emotional scene was taking place!) It?s him not only acknowledging that his value system was screwed up, but having to do it while Touma risked everything to come get him. It?s embarrassing, if nothing else. Shameful. It?s Rintaro?s entire life exposed as empty gestures at best, jackbooted villainy at worst. He needs saving from the thing he dedicated his life to. It?s pathetic, and it makes him wish he?d made every decision in his life differently.

I think that Touma and Rintaro's strain doesn't escalate into something as big as I thought, not a complaint/praise. At worst it was Rintaro's emotional outburst to Touma which even Mei thinks it's like a lover's quarrel. Though it's also a contrast to Kento, who still keeps going on his path after witnessing Touma's success. Though Kento seemingly freed Sophia, and the barrier for Northern Base returns as Touma gets severely injured at the end. Ryoga's Rider form, Durendal, is time based of him easily dodging attacks. It's also shown that Elemental Dragon can be used by non-Saber Riders as a buff like Hyper Muteki in Ex-Aid Ryoga is the opposite of Rintaro here regarding his loyalty to the SoL, where his is without conscience thus he'd blindly follow their darkest goals without second thoughts, thus he can't be reasoned or bargained with, in addition to his seemingly unstoppable Rider form.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But, the thing is, the Sword of Logos was something people made, and a thing people believed in. That alone gives it value. If someone like Rintaro is willing to dedicate their life to it, it matters. This whole episode is about how an organization is improved by true believers, and how an organization that doesn?t value that isn?t worth believing in. But it can be made better; it can be turned into something worthy of its believers. If the Sword of Logos has been corrupted, it?s not something that?s permanent. An organization's just people, and it gains its identity from those people. It only needs better people in charge for it to be better.

Yeah as Touma says, the SoL can be tried to be restored into their usual philosophy, it doesn't need to be destroyed when he cherishes it so deeply, but the fact is there can be corrupt members in any organization, even when it's something meant for noble causes, like in real life for corrupt cops. Though for now, Rintaro defects from his family organization. For opposite though, it's also unwise to assume someone as totally being bad only because they're a part of an organization that is infamous, including when they won't ever perform their dirty work, like trying to convince others to stop going through that path.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Rintarou's unyielding loyalty is one of his most admirable heroic qualities and yet, unfortunately, Master Logos exploited that to turn him against his friends, much like he did with Touma's empathy. An important part of loving something unconditionally is the ability the think critically and the courage to admit when it's in the wrong. SOL isn't bad, but it is broken, due to Master Logos turning it against the tenets it was established to uphold. Rintarou's love for SOL hasn't faltered, on the contrary, he loves it so much that he's found the resolve, thanks to Touma giving him a little nudge, to punish the traitor for perverting the organization's noble cause and restore it to something worthy of that love.

Ryoga is also someone who has unyielding loyalty to SoL though. So I guess, what'd make Rintaro's a heroic quality is his conscience that he follows, while Ryoga has none of that to be devoted to SoL's cause no matter how dark actually it is. He'd follow their darkest goals without second thoughts, making him someone who can't be reasoned or bargained with.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Furthermore, even if you do try and look at the Shindai siblings in a (relatively) healthy way, that doesn't stop people from ignoring it. As mentioned in the Zero One thread, the dark side of the shipping community has certain, uh.... Idiosyncrasies, that the way this is being depicted in the show is basically just pouring gasoline on a fire. My advice for anybody who wants to enjoy Kamen Rider Saber is just to ignore the Reika stuff as much as they can.

My people have a saying: "If you see the word "sex" in the questionnaire and just indicate your gender, then everything is okay. If you have other thoughts about this, then the problem is not in the questionnaire, but in you." But yes, the media has a long history of flirting with shippers, including very deviant ones. But, again, this indicates a problem in society (or even humanity as a whole) rather than in a particular work. Do not bring such topics money, they would be remembered once in a hundred years, and then by accident.
Speaking of the Medic, for me the trio of main Roidmudes were suffering from what I call the "Loki Problem". It's when the villainous character, the good character, but the sucks as villain . As for the Medic, it was mainly other Roidmudes who suffered from her, and it was difficult for me to sympathize with the killer machines, so she never caused much negativity. But the story was good, yes.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

So yeah, Durandal is the Swordsman of Time, who uses a book about marine animals of the ocean. This is cleverly symbolic of Norse culture, where the ocean is used as a metaphor for time and limbo, a bridge between parts of a person's life.

I think there's also a sense of the tides, how they move in and out during the day. There's a real High Tide/Low Tide feel to Durendal's effects.

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Originally Posted by Kurona

Have to say, despite that, you've been doing a pretty good job nailing this so far! The one time lack of future knowledge failed you is when you perfectly note-for-note predicted the plot of a future spin-off! You've seriously jelled with these characters in such an on-point way

Aw, thanks! This whole project has been really fun, and I think a huge benefit is that the show has such a massive cast of intriguing, unique characters. I'm not saying I couldn't've run the same gimmick on Zero-One, but it would've probably only had a couple three distinct viewpoints to examine: Humagears, humanity, maybe MetsubouJinrai. There's a real apropos binary division to how Zero-One's doing its storytelling, while Saber has this fertile territory of workplace dynamics that gives everyone a different perspective on the events of the series.

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Makes me wonder why was Kamijo going on power hungry path for years to seek out the traitor that Rintaro only got a simple solution of.

I'd think part of the problem Kamijo faced was that Master Logos wasn't ready to reveal himself yet? We're in the endgame for his scheme, and he's very excited to crush Rintaro's spirit before he crushes his body. Fifteen years ago, he was probably trying to be a little more stealth about it all.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER SABER EPISODE 30 - “FOREVER CONNECTED, EVEN WHEN APART”



Interesting episode! Not one that was a blast to watch, but one that’s pretty appealing in its subtext.

The beats of the story… not that great? We’ve got our reformed SoL (minus a wandering Ren), complete with Sophia at her post, and it all gives an air of Q1 storytelling: the Book Club are doing some vague scheme, Touma and Rintaro are buddying up for the potential save, the Southern Base is nowhere to be found, and Zooous wants to brawl with Blades. It’s a little formulaic, basically mashing up an early episode’s weightless Megid plot with a more recent Megid Has A Grudge Against A Swordsman plot. There’s a little bit of additional juice from how much the cast is firing on all cylinders, but the structure here is nothing to rave about.

The thing that makes it work, though, is how it’s both a story about two dudes needing to save some lady, and a subversion of that type of story. It’s about Rintaro Needing A Win, to the detriment of Mei’s actual personhood, but it’s also highly critical of stories about men needing to salvage their self-confidence while a woman is in peril.

Like, the thing I love about this otherwise-problematic story (Mei’s more or less off the table as a character after the opening, which, as a Mei fan? NO THANKS!) is that it’s hyper-aware of the optics on this, and leans into it in order to subvert that trope. The point of this story is that Rintaro, for all of his caring about Mei, is only thinking of himself here, and therefore can’t possibly be the hero this story needs.

Rintaro, from the first scene, is completely in his own head. He feels ashamed at his actions that inadvertently supported villainy, and longs to prove himself to his friends. He needs to prove himself. When Mei’s in danger, he needs to save her. When he begs Touma to save her, he needs to feel the worthlessness of not being able to save her. This is a story where Rintaro reframes Mei’s peril as a story about his own redemption and/or suffering, which keeps him from being either effective as a swordsman, or helpful as a friend.

And, y’know, your mileage may vary on how successful this episode is at digging into the toxicity of these types of stories. It’s indulging in tropes specifically to dispute them, but it’s still indulging in them. I really appreciated how it tried to say something about how much we should valorize the men who bravely reorient narratives onto their emotional suffering, though. It’s easy to feel bad for Rintaro, which, sadly, makes it easier to forget about Mei.

Other than that plot, not a lot going on this time? We’re clearly setting up a few threads that’ll pay off later (Sophia reaching out to Kento, Desast reaching out to Ren), but here, they’re just intriguing cutaways from our main action. This is one of those episodes that pretty much all A-plot, with little else to dig into.

I liked that A-plot, though! I’m a sucker for any Rintaro/Mei story, and I really enjoyed how subversive this one was with Rintaro’s rapidly deteriorating confidence and calm. He needs a win real bad! That’s not great for Mei!

—

DON’T THINK ABOUT ME



It honestly was a pretty nice roof.

Mei wasn’t going to say she regretted the times she’d complained about coming here, but she was definitely beginning to see the appeal. There was a refreshing isolation to the roof, which was a benefit she’d found herself in desperate need of this afternoon. (She definitely did not need the stage and inflatable planet, but that was apparently a non-negotiable part of using the roof.)

The day had started off pretty well, which was a pleasant change of pace. After weeks of frayed friendships and devastated swordsmen, they all got to welcome Rintaro home. He even had his first eclair, which was as dumb and adorable as Mei’d hoped. There was normalcy again; at least, as normal as a group of sword-wielding superheroes engaged in a battle against rival apocalyptic groups of book-obsessed lunatics could be. It was nice, for a moment.

And then she became a pawn for one of the book-obsessed lunatics to fight Rintaro, and the day got substantially worse.

She tried to feel bad for Rintaro, but the truth was she was more scared for herself. Rintaro would blame himself, and scream about things, and she was sorry for that. She’d heard the lies the Megid used to demoralize Rintaro, and they were laughably transparent. She’d never doubted Rintaro’s strength, or his conviction, or his abilities. She knew he’d try hard to help her. She felt bad about how Rintaro would believe the lies, though, because it was just how he was. If Touma ran on hope, Rintaro ran on hopelessness.

But her thoughts today hadn’t stayed for long on Rintaro. They came back to her own sense of shame, for how little she’d been able to stop all of these tragic events. The people caught up in this horrible scheme, the collateral damage of everyday folks; not warriors like her and the Sword of Logos, but innocent bystanders. She’d been helpless to watch as they all became pawns, just like her.

That was the worst of it: the helplessness. She’d always assumed she’d go out fighting, just like the rest of the guild. Maybe bravely protecting one of her friends. Maybe saving some civilian, at the tragic cost of her own life. Definitely something that’d go viral. (She’d been certain of that.) Instead, she was cocooned within a gossip cat monster that gaslit her friends while it slowly digested her. It was like watching a TV show, and learning you’d die at the end of it. It felt… impersonal, which made it all the more horrifying.

So she sat here on the roof, dwelling on her shame and fear and guilt and anger. It was a change from her usual outlets of berating whoever wronged her and venting on social media, sometimes simultaneously, and she welcomed the change of pace. It reminded her of the friends she’d leave behind soon, and the connection grounded her just a little bit. She thought of Kento, and Touma, and Rintaro.

Rintaro. If he could get over feeling like he wasn’t strong enough to save her, maybe he could be strong enough to save her. If not, at least they’d have this roof.

[Enchilada645]

It was always going to get worse before it got better for Rintaro tbh, and this is an episode that continues that.

I feel like this is probably the best of the human turned Megid plots purely because it's a character we know this time.

I'll be real, call me whatever you want but... I never got any of those feelings of toxicity out of this episode? Like, idk, it just felt like two people desperately trying to save their friend as one of them is currently trying to figure out how to get back into the groove of everything and believing he can't because of how out of the loop he's been.

Aside from that, a fun note is that Touma used the Daishinji technique again during the opening fight, that's rather nice.

Also I enjoy how you've really just taken to having the brooding roof as a major recurring character in your stories at this point. Really nice.

===Zero Presents: Desast Walk===

Desast Walk #10:

"Hello, humans.

I'm Dessert.

I've never been to a real ocean before.

The sea breeze caresses my cheeks, the sun shines on the waves, and the scent of the shore escapes me.

It's not a bad feeling.

This is something you don't get from reading, right?

But it's too bright for me."

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by Enchilada645

I'll be real, call me whatever you want but... I never got any of those feelings of toxicity out of this episode? Like, idk, it just felt like two people desperately trying to save their friend as one of them is currently trying to figure out how to get back into the groove of everything and believing he can't because of how out of the loop he's been.

If I view it as a straight-up story about Mei being put in danger so Rintaro can learn to believe in himself, I'm probably going to check right out of it and feel a little gross for the production team. If I look at it as a group of creators trying to deconstruct those same types of stories, though? Instantly more entertaining for me.

[r4bbitdragon]

Yeah, the plotline for Mei this episode...

I think people have generally tried to be hopeful about Reiwa, about it being an upgrade for Rider's female characters? How true that is series to series under close examination is it's own matter, but at least visually: hey! It's basically standard the tertiary rider is a Girl now! Big win for Women, right?

Which ends up not looking great for Saber, the notable exception. And it's not just lacking a female tertiary that clouds Saber's handling of women, but the actual female characters are largely... well. When we finally get Reika as a female rider, she immediately gets derailed to (weirdly) fawn over her brother. Sophia gets kidnapped (due to actor obligations, but) with barely an impact on the narrative for ages. Luna... is not a character! She really just exists as motivation.

Mei, at least, breaks the doom and gloom by being generally a delight. She's got energy, she's got spunk! Love to have her around!

But... she /is/ in that more traditional supporter/helper role. And then times like this, when she gets damseled to further Rintaro's despair during this arc for him... Eh. Even Saber's Best Gal can't quite escape, huh...?

[Androzani84]

In all honesty, the most I remember from this episode was the whole “Mei turns into a Cat Megid” beat. To the point I actually wrote a one shot for it which soon devolved into its own AU. I should really finish it sometime.

Mei-gido

[Mesnick]

Oh, you made an interesting point again. Speaking of plot deconstruction, that is, this type of parody, when clich?s are not ridiculed or elevated to absurdity, but are simply shown with increased attention. And then some viewers may perceive it as a satire, while others directly, depending on their preferences. Perhaps there is something similar here. Well, or the writers just made a plot that will help finally restore the relationship between the titular characters so that they meet the upcoming difficulties in their best form.