[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Yeah, but not right away. Finishing Saber, then catching up on three months of Geats, then Revice, then (probably) Outsiders.

I really appreciate that you're doing your best to keep current with Geats, by the way? I can tell from just the handful of things you've said about it in this thread alone that Toei seriously did just go ahead and prep the exact Rider show you'd want to see in celebration of you finally catching up to the newest series. It's like, vicariously exciting to me to think that the back half of that series is what's waiting for you on the other side of the sorta-finish line of this years-long journey you've been on.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

For me, Saber is a show that I tend to associate with Black RX and Drive: three shows that I thought started off really weak but that eventually found their voice and turned into something really fantastic by the end. Between the heroes and villains it probably had more characters than it really knew what to do with most of the time, but I think it generally did a good job of doing justice by the majority of them.

Saber... it's so weird, because I can't say I ever got on its wavelength fully, and yet I don't think it ever altered its approach to placate disgruntled viewers. It's like it just reached an equilibrium with me, where it was just Saber, no description or elaboration required. It did its thing, and I took what I could from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I really appreciate that you're doing your best to keep current with Geats, by the way? I can tell from just the handful of things you've said about it in this thread alone that Toei seriously did just go ahead and prep the exact Rider show you'd want to see in celebration of you finally catching up to the newest series. It's like, vicariously exciting to me to think that the back half of that series is what's waiting for you on the other side of the sorta-finish line of this years-long journey you've been on.

Geats is the easiest Kamen Rider show I've ever watched. I love the topics it was talking about in the first quarter (who is allowed to have dreams in capitalism; how dreams are turned into products and resold to dreamers; how dreams change and grow as we get older and learn about the world), and I'm psyched to see where it goes next. And that theme song! SO GOOD!

Also, "sorta-finish line" is right. Fun to catch up with the present, but these threads aren't disappearing after Revice.

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER SABER: SWORD OF LOGOS SAGA



Ha ha, who asked for this?

Literally the only good parts are the ones whose goofy yet heartwarming antics are the most incongruent with the specials' overarching narrative: Ren and Desast, Reika and Ryoga. Those couple scenes buried in the back half of the second part are maybe the only redeeming qualities of a two-part special that quickly and decisively reminded me of everything I disliked about Saber.

Like, Kamijo. This could’ve been the special that made sense of Kamijo’s incredibly weird personality and objectives. Instead, the chronological retelling just makes everything he does more ridiculous and inexplicable. Every attempt to soften his villainy by portraying it as misguided just makes him look like buffoon, and his motivations still feel abrupt and unconvincing. He should come off as a guy that tried to make sense of his best friend’s depression and fell into the same trap of pessimism that doomed Hayato; instead, he mostly comes off as a guy that abandons everything he ever believed in to honor the ghost of a friend he didn’t seem all that close to. Hayato’s fall makes sense – he’s scared for his child, and succumbs to a fatalism that destroys any hope he might try and bestow upon his son. Kento’s fall makes sense – his guilt keeps him from prioritizing his desires in a healthy way, so he invites more shame and guilt as a way of defining himself. Kamijo’s just some weirdo who was a hero right up until he became a Megid-collaborating apocalyptic psychopath.

It doesn’t help that, by laying things out chronologically, we’re left to shrug at how little explanation goes into the mechanisms that drove the early story. Luna’s never been seen, until she is, the very second Isaac is telling someone she’s never been seen. Calibur teams up with the Megid for power, and then does nothing for fifteen years. It’s all… none of this deserves to be taken literally. The backstory of a show like this should work on fairytale logic, the Once Upon A Time of it all; explaining it makes it so much worse. The second Kamijo tells us that he didn’t really curse Kento into an early grave – he actually shunted him to a nega-realm for safe-keeping, but got murdered before he could explain any of that to anyone, he wasn’t really a villain you guys, not really – he becomes a pathetic character that reads like the world’s most unnecessary and hilarious retcon. Let him be a doomed villain, not some ineffective dope. There’s weight in mystery, and this show’s early run – typified by these specials and their recap – frequently ruined it by trotting out terrible explanations.

Oh, man, was this thing not a good idea to produce. It’s worse answers to not great mysteries, and done in a way that exposes how much these shows evolve over time. That evolution is usually great: these shows become more themselves, honed like a blade. Specials like this, that attempt to connect all the dots, just end up revealing how much was rethought since the premiere, and how different the show has become. It’s trying to add logic to emotion, and it’s maybe exactly the wrong thing to do.

[Enchilada645]

The Ren and Desast play rock paper scissors and hard hats was my favorite part of this special tbh.

Also past Espada and Kenzan are probably the most hilarious Riders ever. In that they transform, finisher, then promptly get killed within 10 seconds.

Like I know people like to laugh at Dark Necrom Pink, but our past Kenzan looked at that fight, and said "bet". It's funny when I can say that Dark Necrom Pink of all Riders put up a better fight than Past Kenzan.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

The Ren and Desast play rock paper scissors and hard hats was my favorite part of this special tbh.

Also past Espada and Kenzan are probably the most hilarious Riders ever. In that they transform, finisher, then promptly get killed within 10 seconds.

Like I know people like to laugh at Dark Necrom Pink, but our past Kenzan looked at that fight, and said "bet". It's funny when I can say that Dark Necrom Pink of all Riders put up a better fight than Past Kenzan.

The weirdest part of the Desast And Ren Are Lonely Boys scene is that it's not long after Desast has murdered two swordsmen? It's like, what are you trying to say about Desast with these two scenes? The whole Sword Of Logos Saga is very weird about whether horrible actions have consequences if you're sad inside.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER SABER: SWORD OF LOGOS SAGA

For the most part, the purpose of the Sword of Logos is to gather all the information together before the final fight with Isaac. And whether they converge or not, this is secondary. Plus, as far as I remember, there was a rather long pause between the first and second episodes. It was also great to see the previous generation of swordsmen, because the legacy of swords is exactly what I like about the concept of local riders. Saber existed before Touma and will continue to exist after him, which opens up a huge scope for stories.
I will also note the tea drinking of Ryoga and Reika. First, their thoughts are voiced, literally showing how and why they mean so much to each other. Secondly, I would advise you to pay attention to the fact that Reika was not supposed to become a rider until she was chosen by Noroshi - a seiken that even the sword-obsessed Daishinji considered lost. This will play a role in Shindai's special.
P.S. Also, there will be no more fanfics at all, or is it just the SoL that doesn't deserve them?

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

She's always been protective of her brother, but this is ramping things up into a more irritating jealousy angle that... I mean, it's problematic, I think we can all agree. Even if you end up viewing it as a sibling's devotion, or an idolization, it's still super weird that this grown woman is infuriated by her brother maybe-flirting with Mei. It's not that funny, and it unnecessarily harms Reika's character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER SABER: SWORD OF LOGOS SAGA

Literally the only good parts are the ones whose goofy yet heartwarming antics are the most incongruent with the specials' overarching narrative: Ren and Desast, Reika and Ryoga. Those couple scenes buried in the back half of the second part are maybe the only redeeming qualities of a two-part special that quickly and decisively reminded me of everything I disliked about Saber.

Regarding you liking Reika's antics here while not for ep. 48, are you viewing her idolizing Ryoga separately as her irritating jealousy to others who interact with him? Because I do think that the infuritation comes from how much she adores him, she'd keep the most precious thing to her away from others. Unless you're thinking that only the adoring part can be done without that jealousy (but Reika's a jerk so, not a decent person like Juka Tendou, the irritating jealousy is expected). Otherwise, Ren and Desast actually get along better than I expected here, I mean they do in their final battle, but previously it was them being unwittingly pulled towards each other while only showing clear dislike, but here they're playing games together with them casually making suggestions like for Desast to enjoy the food slowly and better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Like, Kamijo. This could’ve been the special that made sense of Kamijo’s incredibly weird personality and objectives. Instead, the chronological retelling just makes everything he does more ridiculous and inexplicable. Every attempt to soften his villainy by portraying it as misguided just makes him look like buffoon, and his motivations still feel abrupt and unconvincing. He should come off as a guy that tried to make sense of his best friend’s depression and fell into the same trap of pessimism that doomed Hayato; instead, he mostly comes off as a guy that abandons everything he ever believed in to honor the ghost of a friend he didn’t seem all that close to. Hayato’s fall makes sense – he’s scared for his child, and succumbs to a fatalism that destroys any hope he might try and bestow upon his son. Kento’s fall makes sense – his guilt keeps him from prioritizing his desires in a healthy way, so he invites more shame and guilt as a way of defining himself. Kamijo’s just some weirdo who was a hero right up until he became a Megid-collaborating apocalyptic psychopath.

I do view Reika's jealousy antics as sibling's devotion, but that, along with Kamijo's part here, is the reason why I don't put caring for family or loved ones on pedestal as much as many other people. Devotion toward loved ones can mean, literally only towards them, but mistreating everyone else enough to be apathetic or is ok with screwing them over for the loved one's sake. Regardless of Kamijo not making sense, I gotta say that Kamijo seems to be someone who only cares about his comrades, or perhaps only Hayato. What he only cares is the issues between his comrades. He may only have viewed his swordsman duty as an obligation to please his comrades, instead of actually doing that for genuine desire, to not care about that in comparison to searching what breaks the SoL apart, like teaming up with Megid to accomplish that. It's what happens when someone is only shown getting along with their comrades and doing good to them, doesn't necessarily mean the outer circle is a part of it. Then it'd be quite unreasonable to assume Touma is similar to previous Caliburs of being drunk with power as he has shown more devotion towards the public he protects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It doesn’t help that, by laying things out chronologically, we’re left to shrug at how little explanation goes into the mechanisms that drove the early story. Luna’s never been seen, until she is, the very second Isaac is telling someone she’s never been seen. Calibur teams up with the Megid for power, and then does nothing for fifteen years. It’s all… none of this deserves to be taken literally. The backstory of a show like this should work on fairytale logic, the Once Upon A Time of it all; explaining it makes it so much worse. The second Kamijo tells us that he didn’t really curse Kento into an early grave – he actually shunted him to a nega-realm for safe-keeping, but got murdered before he could explain any of that to anyone, he wasn’t really a villain you guys, not really – he becomes a pathetic character that reads like the world’s most unnecessary and hilarious retcon. Let him be a doomed villain, not some ineffective dope. There’s weight in mystery, and this show’s early run – typified by these specials and their recap – frequently ruined it by trotting out terrible explanations.

To explain, the part 1 would be done between ep. 16-17 (16.5), and the part 2 is done between ep. 35-36 (35.5). Kamijo is a (anti-)villain regardless if he's an ineffective dope or pathetic, because he has done bad things. Otherwise, seems that there are more shown regarding Isaac, in how he'd talk about protecting the world to the swordsmen, while ofc keeping his smarmy nature. So Isaac didn't really bring up about the reasons why he'd want to protect the world at that time, but perhaps was just the type who lies against other swordsmen, though he slipped a bit against Hayato who is now more suspicious. Later he only talked about the world being boring to recreate it in his image. If Sophia already existed long ago when Daishinji and Ogami are "young recruits" (even if same actor), then that should mean Luna is significantly older than Kentouma too. Daishinji displays his lack of social tact more here, being outright rude to people sharing their stories or the way they're talking. The first Espada and Kenzan, Kyoichiro Shinsen and Amane Kagami, looks incompetent as fighters to be killed because that their attack launches the opening themselves.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Regarding you liking Reika's antics here while not for ep. 48, are you viewing her idolizing Ryoga separately as her irritating jealousy to others who interact with him? Because I do think that the infuritation comes from how much she adores him, she'd keep the most precious thing to her away from others. Unless you're thinking that only the adoring part can be done without that jealousy (but Reika's a jerk so, not a decent person like Juka Tendou, the irritating jealousy is expected).

The reason for Reika's disgusting behavior is not her jealousy of her brother (it is rather a consequence), but that she idolizes him and tries to be him. Hence the sudden outbursts of emotions, both negative (with Sophia) and positive (with Magine). Ryoga is not emotional by nature, while Reika tries to be like him, crushing her true nature. Well, the consequences have to be reaped by those who were unsuccessfully nearby.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

It was also great to see the previous generation of swordsmen, because the legacy of swords is exactly what I like about the concept of local riders. Saber existed before Touma and will continue to exist after him, which opens up a huge scope for stories.

Yeah, I like the acknowledgement that this organization isn't just Touma's support system, it's a group that's got hundreds of years of people acting as guardians against evil. They're not, uh, great at it, but they're definitely there!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

P.S. Also, there will be no more fanfics at all, or is it just the SoL that doesn't deserve them?

No more fanfics, I think. The Sword of Logos special definitely didn't warrant one, and I just... I think I like them being done when the series is done. I hope that's not a disappointment to anyone!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Regardless of Kamijo not making sense, I gotta say that Kamijo seems to be someone who only cares about his comrades, or perhaps only Hayato. What he only cares is the issues between his comrades. He may only have viewed his swordsman duty as an obligation to please his comrades, instead of actually doing that for genuine desire, to not care about that in comparison to searching what breaks the SoL apart, like teaming up with Megid to accomplish that.

I mean, that's the implication of the first part -- that the Sword of Logos was a good workplace but a terrible group of friends, so they were unable to help Hayato in the way that he needed. Everything is Duty and Oaths, but caring about each other is more measured and distant.

[Enchilada645]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

No more fanfics, I think. The Sword of Logos special definitely didn't warrant one, and I just... I think I like them being done when the series is done. I hope that's not a disappointment to anyone!

Honestly given the final fanfic's content (again, love bookendings) and probably how limiting the content from here on is going to be, you've made the right call I'd say.