[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

Because Revice isn't just about family bonds and how they support one another, but also ideas such as independence versus codependency, as well as how trying to force yourself to be something you're not very rarely if ever goes well. I've said so before and I'll say it again here, I'm a sucker for stories that deal with duality, and Revice has that with nearly every major character, instantly making me fascinated with its cast.

Dealing with duality is often what gets praise from wide array of people, of which I'd want to talk about the "opposite" thing here. It's to the point that some people will always forcibly impose the idea of duality in everything, that those think it's the only right way to write story/characters. As a Kuuga fan, what'd you say regarding this especially for perhaps being fans of characters like Yuusuke (of which, not Yuusuke himself ironically, but these kind of characters often get bashed for not giving those duality they seek).

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

Daiji desperately wants to usurp the main hero role from Ikki, so it's a no brainer for him when George offers a quick and easy way to gaining a step ahead of Ikki in the way of Holy Live. Sure, it works out in the short term, but more often than not something that works immediately isn't what ultimately works in the long term. Holy Live is essentially a band-aid on Daiji's' lack of self-esteem and envy towards his siblings. This is brilliantly compounded when we get to the last leg of the show, wherein, true to Holy Live's' design, Daiji ends up becoming a literal crusader for Fenix.

I'd also say, the knight-like appearance of Live and Holy Live represents on how self-righteous he became later after Kagerou's death, fully convinced he's in the right and unwilling to hear anyone else out, believing that Ikki is just going to get more people killed by continuing to oppose Giff, getting a with us or against us approach. The trope of this self-righteousness is called knight templar types, he doesn't only embody this character type in personality but also literally.

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

Afterall, he's come so far throughout the show, and has seen things that his siblings haven't. How could he possibly be wrong in seeing that submitting to Giff would be the best for everyone, especially given that it's the path of least resistance? Holy Live was quick and easy, and that got them this far, so why can't contracting with Giff do much the same? He got rid of his inner demons. He's pure now. He has to be in the right! This entire scenario does a great job in showcasing another ultimate lesson that Revice has to offer: Sure, our inner demons can and definitely will hold us back at times, but other times, our inner voice telling us things we might not be too keen on are what also keep us in check. Without Kagero, there's nothing to keep Daiji from second guessing himself or his methods.

Being a reminder too that 'pure' doesn't only mean being most heroic, or other virtuous and morally upright (so has little to no unheroic traits), of which the term is often used to refer to those (also used with 'cinnamon roll' as well). It also can mean having a mind free of distractions, unnecessary thoughts, doubts, or fallacies, refering to traits like hard work or determination. A philosophical concept of makoto. And that'd be Daiji being steadfast to save humanity by the easiest way he can think - giving up their freedom while ruthlessly opposing those who stands in his way. Not Daiji despite his turn on villainy, but it also applies on "pure evil" too (where some stories have the "only the pure" can wield something backfiring due to this).

Regarding his brief stint of opposing Akaishi within Fenix being without Kagerou before turning into Fenix crusader though, there are talks about Daiji being pure is about him becoming 'too good/heroic' (by recklessly throwing away his life to stop evil) without his evil side Kagerou. Which does give an impression that being heroic discards all forms of reason, thinking that self-preservation, thinking things through, etc. are terrible traits that turn you more unheroic (which is brought up in Die's thread). Don't really want for people to associate shortcomings like recklessness and impulsiveness as inherent traits of heroism, and discourage goodness by this to "get ahead" or encouraging cruelty (like perhaps those stupid neutral moves like balancing metaphorical checkbook) for "balance".

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

And in the end, Daiji learns to not only accept his darker half, but opens his mind to new possibilities and realizes that, number one in life or not, he'll still have people who love him, and that there's no reason he can't also love himself. It all makes for one incredibly emotionally satisfying payoff, and it's this sort of character work that really kept me engaged with Revice as a whole. Daiji, George, Julio, Vice... these are all my personal favorites, but I'd hesitate to call any given character in Revice out and out poorly done. Even Giff, whom I've read many complain about, I found alot more interesting than, say, Masamune Dan from Ex-Aid, who still holds the title of most poorly written villain to me.

People'd likely overlook this regarding the view on Daiji, but to talk about something I appreciated during Revice's second half, I appreciated of how they mainly highlighted Daiji's tactical senses after his full personality is restored with Kagerou back, showing that he's no longer willing to succumb into hopelessness, and would look for another way to solve problems, and that it's also done consistently. I don't like people glorifying Kagerou as blameless good guy though, especially those who mocked Daiji in comparison to him, about how his "death" and return both benefits Daiji, or also framing his claims of tasting Sakura's food as tsundere only because he fought off Olteca, thus his actions produced a good outcome, evil vs evil (no pun intended) is a thing too.

Though admittedly George can be fun to watch either way for his first memetic and "relatable" parts and I think for second part in his laidbackness while being helpful, would still think that his change is sudden and abrupt in middle part of him being an actual helpful ally, especially with the excuses of him "just following orders" to Akaishi (not convincing to me, given him looking down on Hiromi's ideals), and later apparently having a devil, Chic, transfered to him (which also can make Masumi look so bad given that they're trying to have the audience forgive him, though I haven't watched the Chic movie yet). Then again, there are also another well-received character that I think the change is abrupt too, like Zack from Gaim suddenly becoming a nice guy and buddy-buddy in his first focused appearence (Knuckle debut), though he had very little presence before.

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Originally Posted by DreamSword

I'd argue that Vice was never retconned. His intentions are pretty clearcut from the getgo, especially if you read the LINE messages.

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Originally Posted by Fredbob392

it instead being given by her Stalker with a crush who justifies mocking and insulting her with having been anxious

Wish I can that the new translations (that I got) didn't translate those. Though for Revice I really don't like those messages about "cruel to be kind" being validated (ep. 23 is all about that), which likely applies too for Vice's antics at that time, with it being clearer example to me than the Kyuun one to me, for Fredbob's post. A̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶p̶e̶a̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶K̶y̶u̶u̶n̶,̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶a̶r̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶s̶u̶p̶p̶o̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶R̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶N̶e̶o̶n̶,̶ ̶I̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶r̶e̶c̶i̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶g̶a̶r̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶m̶i̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶c̶r̶u̶e̶l̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶k̶i̶n̶d̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶r̶o̶a̶c̶h̶ ̶-̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶K̶y̶u̶u̶n̶ ̶e̶a̶r̶l̶i̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶,̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶c̶e̶n̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶e̶p̶.̶ ̶4̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶a̶i̶g̶h̶t̶f̶o̶r̶w̶a̶r̶d̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶e̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶K̶e̶i̶w̶a̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶u̶c̶h̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶g̶e̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶f̶e̶c̶t̶e̶d̶.̶

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Originally Posted by Fredbob392

Hikaru aside, every character in Revice is so fun and engaging, while none of the recurring characters in Geats do anything other than shout their catchphrase once a scene and then fight each other.

Feels that this claim can apply to series like Ryuki too (and I bash neither Ryuki or Geats, though dunno if you'd take offense to this claim), where I also feel that the characters have an overall singular goal/identity there, with the characters praise coming from inherent complex and nuanced praise (feels more like people's taste) given to morally grey or worse characters (most prominently Kitaoka), as Ryuki intentionally has shitty people being chosen for the war.

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Originally Posted by Fredbob392

Neon not even getting to deliver her own Reason To Fight Speach after her dramatic backstory reveal, it instead being given by her Stalker with a crush who justifies mocking and insulting her with having been anxious. And Tsumuri being a combination of Poppy and Izu, although that's more of a personal opinion on Takahashi's writing feeling repetitive

Looking forward for said Reason to Fight Speech later, but though it seems that KR don't usually do this before, I personally like that Neon's trauma and issues aren't immediately resolved in that 2 parter and it's still being continued as another material for character arc, she gets her drive for self-preservance back, but it doesn't immediately resolve her self-loathing and inadequacy from her real status and a portion of her haters to still searching for what she belongs, currently having self-destructive path, especially with her warped view of likely not properly knowing what is love. Though it still depends, it can make more sense to take longer time to fully recover from that, than resolving it in 2 parter that while it can give warm feelings but still.

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Originally Posted by Switchblade

Geats is a lot like Gaim for me. I think it's a good show, but I'm not seeing what everyone else has gotten so hyped up over.

Overall regardless of the shows being "highly beloved", the only true ones that almost has no hate/criticism (CMIIW though) seems to be W, OOO, and Fourze (which actually suffered from some dislike earlier). Anything else can have controversial stuff, though seems less so for Build for people here. I'd also think that W isn't a perfect show, though it may be a hotter take.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Akemi was the worst case, that I imagine most people will agree with. She was introduced as a cool character who can fight, but then she got turned in to an obedient Gif Devil and killed just so Daiji could yell, "Look what you guys made Gif do!" Her plan to get Gif's cells failed and she died having accomplished nothing.

Heh... actually she was a damsel in distress, in her being held hostage by untransformed Kagerou. Both surprised and expected that later, she has some combat and survival capabilities against Akaishi, though ofc it's futile for normal human (and weapon) like her.

[DreamSword]

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Originally Posted by Annuga

Could you elaborate on this? My understand is that Vice tried to eat Ikki's mother in episode 1 and a lot later, Vice was revealed to never be able to do that cause of a deal he made with Ikki as a child or something. The term retcon gets thrown left and right these days because people are illiterate so I wouldn't mind seeing how this wasn't actually the case

Devils can't lie.



In other words, Vice was never actually going to eat her. It was either part of his usual antics or a plot to try and keep Ikki from progressing the contract too far. This, combined with his antics as the show goes on and the other LINE messages shows time and time again that he's only out for Ikki's' best interest, and never at the expense of his family. Even when it comes to fighting Kagero, who is Daiji's' Devil...



So yeah, if you ask me, Vice's' character is pretty consistent while still having some rather natural development.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Dealing with duality is often what gets praise from wide array of people, of which I'd want to talk about the "opposite" thing here. It's to the point that some people will always forcibly impose the idea of duality in everything, that those think it's the only right way to write story/characters. As a Kuuga fan, what'd you say regarding this especially for perhaps being fans of characters like Yuusuke (of which, not Yuusuke himself ironically, but these kind of characters often get bashed for not giving those duality they seek).

I mean, I love duality and split personalities and all that as narrative/character devices, but I wouldn't say the lack of them is inherently any lesser in any way. It's all in the execution, afterall. Revice having duality at the forefront is a plus. That it managed to explore it in a way I found entertaining is just moreso. Had I felt they done it bad, I'd be alot more upset(see: Kamen Rider Build).

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I'd also say, the knight-like appearance of Live and Holy Live represents on how self-righteous he became later after Kagerou's death, fully convinced he's in the right and unwilling to hear anyone else out, believing that Ikki is just going to get more people killed by continuing to oppose Giff, getting a with us or against us approach. The trope of this self-righteousness is called knight templar types, he doesn't only embody this character type in personality but also literally.

Absolutely. Holy Live's' design is so good in so many ways because of stuff like this.

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People'd likely overlook this regarding the view on Daiji, but to talk about something I appreciated during Revice's second half, I appreciated of how they mainly highlighted Daiji's tactical senses after his full personality is restored with Kagerou back, showing that he's no longer willing to succumb into hopelessness, and would look for another way to solve problems, and that it's also done consistently.

Fair point!

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Though admittedly George can be fun to watch either way for his first memetic and "relatable" parts and I think for second part in his laidbackness while being helpful, would still think that his change is sudden and abrupt in middle part of him being an actual helpful ally, especially with the excuses of him "just following orders" to Akaishi (not convincing to me, given him looking down on Hiromi's ideals), and later apparently having a devil, Chic, transfered to him (which also can make Masumi look so bad given that they're trying to have the audience forgive him, though I haven't watched the Chic movie yet).

Yeah, as much as I love George, it definitely would've been better had his progression from chaotic neutral to neutral good were more naturally done, rather than suddenly with a explanation as to why later on. I will say though that, of the two options we got, I do much prefer the Devil explanation rather than the Just Following Orders one.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by Annuga

Geats being a showy character in general who loves bathing in the spotlight doesn't contradict how he'd flirt with women

Yes, maybe, but why then he stop? Jamato kicked him in the groin?

[AkibaSilver]

Kamen Rider Fourze Episodes 15 & 16: "Holy Night Chorus Singer" & "Good Stands Against Evil"



Christmas episode! And it's an interesting one. We have the usual fortnightly Victim - he's an artist! He really doesn't like distractions! We get the next dollop of deep lore from Tachibana-San, whose latest attempt at mentoring a young person is going a lot better than when he tried to play baseball with Mutsuki. And we get a mysterious new Kamen Rider, who is able to beat a Horoscope by the sheer virtue of having actual martial arts skills.

The main story at play here is pretty standard Rider stuff, with a villain who just wants to follow his passion and is doing petty evil shit to do it, but it's pretty notable Gentarou manages to talk him down even while being petrified and drawing like a child. Probably also didn't help that Tachibana-san sent him straight to killing children. I do feel that, while "Gentarou makes friends" is going to be the signature theme of the show, we're 16 episodes deep, and the plotlines need to start stretching a little more than that. Probably why the writers are introducing the other thing. Not Yuki's singing career, the other other thing. Hayabusa-song is probably what Switchblade hears in their nightmares, alongside the second Hibiki OP.

Meteor! He's cool! He's still a blank slate here! I guess we'll get properly introduced to him next episode. God, it's weird to have Kamen Rider show with literally only two Riders. That's basically only this, Den-O and kinda-sorta-Double, right?

[AkibaSilver]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Yes, maybe, but why then he stop? Jamato kicked him in the groin?

Uhhh I've not been following the entire argument but "Ace now has bigger problems meaning that he doesn't have time to flirt with random women hanging around near him" seems like the obvious shout. Like, its just a smaller part of him being a cocky bastard and the usual reduction in time Riders spend doing non-Rider stuff as these shows continue.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

Uhhh I've not been following the entire argument but "Ace now has bigger problems meaning that he doesn't have time to flirt with random women hanging around near him" seems like the obvious shout. Like, its just a smaller part of him being a cocky bastard and the usual reduction in time Riders spend doing non-Rider stuff as these shows continue.

But they didn?t start from the third episode. Besides, Kurenai Otoya continued to flirt even while dying, so it didn't start from the third episode.
Personally, I think the explanation is that the writers realized that they didn't have the material for a love line with regular characters and didn't have the means to cast popular singers/extra models. But this just confirms my idea that the plot and characters change as the shooting progresses. Actually, the writers of the riders themselves have repeatedly admitted this, so I basically don?t understand what the dispute is about.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Feels that this claim can apply to series like Ryuki too (and I bash neither Ryuki or Geats, though dunno if you'd take offense to this claim), where I also feel that the characters have an overall singular goal/identity there, with the characters praise coming from inherent complex and nuanced praise (feels more like people's taste) given to morally grey or worse characters (most prominently Kitaoka), as Ryuki intentionally has shitty people being chosen for the war.

But still, the main characters of Ryuki are familiar to everyone. The idealistic Shinji, the conflicted Ren, the slippery lawyer Kitaoka, the psycho Asakura. With each of these, albeit not in such bright guises, a person has met at least once in his life (well, the lucky ones heard about those similar to Ouja in the news). And how often do we get types like Ace or Michinaga? Such characters simply need a deeper disclosure, but all his attempts on the show come down to self-repetitions. I mean, we're getting close to the end, can you tell me why Ace had to cheat on Keiwa in the second episode? Well, apart from the fact that it is necessary to explain to the audience that he is a liar.

[JusticeMagnum]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

But they didn?t start from the third episode. Besides, Kurenai Otoya continued to flirt even while dying, so it didn't start from the third episode.
Personally, I think the explanation is that the writers realized that they didn't have the material for a love line with regular characters and didn't have the means to cast popular singers/extra models. But this just confirms my idea that the plot and characters change as the shooting progresses. Actually, the writers of the riders themselves have repeatedly admitted this, so I basically don?t understand what the dispute is about.

I?m not sure the comparison to Otoya really works here at all considering that being flirtatious & a lady?s man is sorta Otoya?s whole thing early on plus his goal through out most of Kiva is to earn the love of a Woman so him being flirty most of the time makes perfect sense. This doesn?t apply to Ace though, his primary goal throughout the entirety of Geats is to find his mother, plus I?d argue his defining traits as a character is that he?s a show off, a trickster, & a liar which remain consistent throughout the entire show off (the flirting was more so a side effect of Ace?s cockiness rather than being a key aspect of his character like with Otoya). So I think the idea that he flirted 2-3 times so he has to do it most of the time to be a consistent character doesn?t make much sense at all.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by JusticeMagnum

So I think the idea that he flirted 2-3 times so he has to do it most of the time to be a consistent character doesn?t make much sense at all.

Yes, but then the claim to Vice for the stated desire to eat Yukimi also does not make sense, because the character's goal is not to eat people. In principle, I initially cited Geats as an example, because this is the closest analogue that I remembered.
Also, in my opinion, any break from the "Ace says win/Ace wins" pattern is good for a character.
And:

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Originally Posted by JusticeMagnum

his defining traits as a character is that he?s a show off, a trickster, & a liar

This is our hero! I miss the "boring good guys". Also, it's funny that this description is equally suitable for both Ace and Kusaka, and the attitude towards the characters is completely different.

[MrWilliamGraham]

I finished watching Ex-Aid today, and while I'm not all that great at writing full reviews but I definitely enjoyed it; great premise, fun characters, fantastic action, designs that are goofy in all the right ways. I can see why this show is so popular. Still have the post show movies to watch next

And with that, I've finished every Heisei season. Only took about 4 years? I don't really have a post-watch analysis ready to go, (after graduating college I've turned off all my paper writing functions ) but the Rider and Toku content available were a great constant to have at my disposable during some up and down years.

I think a proper personal retrospective is in order later, but what are you guy's favorite Rider memories throughout the years?