[LevisNox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I don't think forms and upgrades need to be the be all and end all of characters but it would kind of stand out if Majade is the first Secondary to not get a proper Final Form in the main series.

that's a bad mindset

with the fact everyone else is getting strong that means she stays weak

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunred

Yeah, most likely.

Remember that people didn't know about Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi until the preview for the finale. It's possible that Majade's Final Form could debut in the finale.

Valvarad on the other hand, yeah, that's probably going to be V-Cinema like Buffa Plosion Rage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

Legitimately feel like despite people getting tired of the toyetic nature of Rider and asking for less toys, they still want to latch onto toys = importance to fulfill their own complaints. It's a double standard that needs to be addressed tbh.

People can be hypocrites. I mentioned before that they want Gotchard to be more like Majade and Majade to be more like Gotchard, so there's no way to satisfy them. They'll always complain about something. Feels like they forget the play appeal of the Tokusatsu genre and now they act entitled when they don't get exactly what they want, even though they've outgrown the target demographic and Toei doesn't owe them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

Rinne is definitely much better off, but her storylines with Atropos and her dad have pretty much stopped and there's the recent two parter we had where they used an admittedly really fun gag to write her out of the plot. They also had that plot device where she had to charge her Alchemy Ring, so she couldn't even become a Rider until the winter movie was out long enough. Again, not nearly as bad off as Spanner, but they still have done some stuff to downplay her role.

Even I can't defend the narrative choice to have a chemical accident leave Rinne absent for 2 whole episodes, when she's literally the second protagonist. If they wanted Majade out of the picture, then she could just leave her ring behind for charging, but removing Rinne is a waste of potential for a lot of interactions in Kongo Laboratories. At least she's not the only Secondary Rider who can't henshin whenever she wants, since G3-X exists. There was also a long time where Evil was absent after Live "killed" him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

But the latter can't happen as long as Bandai rules over this series with an iron fist.

Get Ready For The Next Battle

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

could of

You mean "could have" or "could've". It hurts your credibility when you can't even get the grammar right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

that's a bad mindset

with the fact everyone else is getting strong that means she stays weak

New forms aren't the only way to get stronger. Remember from the Hyper Battle that Rinne started studying martial arts books in preparation for her debut as Majade in the show. She doesn't only rely on alchemy, she hones her physical strength as well.

[Sunred]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Remember that people didn't know about Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi until the preview for the finale. It's possible that Majade's Final Form could debut in the finale.

Valvarad on the other hand, yeah, that's probably going to be V-Cinema like Buffa Plosion Rage.

True. Should that happen Majede does seem like the likely candidate.

[Frontier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LevisNox

that's a bad mindset

with the fact everyone else is getting strong that means she stays weak

I mean, I think she deserves more than just MoonCerberus. It's like if Vulcan only got Punching Kong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Remember that people didn't know about Kamen Rider Tsukuyomi until the preview for the finale. It's possible that Majade's Final Form could debut in the finale.

I think Rinne's actress was spotted in a cast photo with a new ring people are speculating is for the Final Form (GaiaDragon)

[toughfighter83]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

I'll agree to disagree in regards to Rinne. I feel like she's been pretty solid in terms of her focus and she's been around more often than not. She has presence in terms of the cast.

Spanner though lol, yeah he's kind of just there. He gets his moments but he is not as entrenched in the ongoings of everything as Houtaro and Rinne are.

I do think it's a mistake to even lump the two together because Rinne absolutely feels like she has more prominence than Spanner in general. But also I think it's just insulting to say they're only "meat shields" is missing the point and it feels like a case of not watching the show if that's the takeaway.

if i remember correctly the toyline for spanner the toys that were released for him were labeled as villain. what happened with spanner was he was supposed to be a villain for most of the series that's why he's not around for much of the story since they probably had to scrap and rewrite his character as a hero

it's the same with rinnie since she wasnt supposed to be a rider and it was an add in and that's why she doesnt transform in some of episodes since she was supposed to be written as a side character and not a rider.

originally what i had heard that it was supposed to be focused just on houtaro aka kouga being the lone hero and i think they had to change everything that had to do with the poor toy sales in geats and toei/bandai probably stepped in and told the writers to change the script around which isnt easy to do especially when it comes to filming new suits and changing characters. that has to be frustrating for the writers.

[MKDremare]

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

if i remember correctly the toyline for spanner the toys that were released for him were labeled as villain. what happened with spanner was he was supposed to be a villain for most of the series that's why he's not around for much of the story since they probably had to scrap and rewrite his character as a hero

it's the same with rinnie since she wasnt supposed to be a rider and it was an add in and that's why she doesnt transform in some of episodes since she was supposed to be written as a side character and not a rider.

originally what i had heard that it was supposed to be focused just on houtaro aka kouga being the lone hero and i think they had to change everything that had to do with the poor toy sales in geats and toei/bandai probably stepped in and told the writers to change the script around which isnt easy to do especially when it comes to filming new suits and changing characters. that has to be frustrating for the writers.

Citation needed, this is the first time I have ever seen anything like that for Gotchard.

[Zolda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

I really couldn't care less about forms, I just want to see better writing. But the latter can't happen as long as Bandai rules over this series with an iron fist. You can cut half the Riders and forms out of the past four seasons of Kamen Rider, including Gotchard, and you would end up with better shows every time.

This. I can't agree more. Bandai's aggressive toyetic push severely impacts the quality of the story. It seems like they prioritize short-term profits over long-term profits.

Maybe the age of good writing in Kamen Rider is already over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toughfighter83

if i remember correctly the toyline for spanner the toys that were released for him were labeled as villain. what happened with spanner was he was supposed to be a villain for most of the series that's why he's not around for much of the story since they probably had to scrap and rewrite his character as a hero

it's the same with rinnie since she wasnt supposed to be a rider and it was an add in and that's why she doesnt transform in some of episodes since she was supposed to be written as a side character and not a rider.

originally what i had heard that it was supposed to be focused just on houtaro aka kouga being the lone hero and i think they had to change everything that had to do with the poor toy sales in geats and toei/bandai probably stepped in and told the writers to change the script around which isnt easy to do especially when it comes to filming new suits and changing characters. that has to be frustrating for the writers.

Yeah, I've also heard those rumors. I think the cause is the basic script being revised several times. If true, then it confirms my suspicion I've mentioned several times in weekly episode threads about Gotchard having an identity crisis. To me, Gotchard feels like a story in quite a deep self-doubt, haha. It feels like there's something holding it back from realizing its true potential, which is huge.

I've also thought that Rinne was initially never planned to be a Rider. My suspicion arose when her debut in the Gotchard-Geats collab film felt very forced and also violated the film's internal logic. Basically, the film violated one of its own rules for the sake of making Rinne henshin into KR Majade. Another member in this forum mentioned that Rinne is badly written as a Rider, and I heartily concur with that statement.

[Zolda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZeroWolf

Not to be rude but nothing in the definition of Heroine matches what "providing emotional support to the protagonist". The literal definition is as follows:
"a woman who is admired for having done something very brave or having achieved something great"
The second definition matches Rinne even better:
"the main female character in a book or film, who is usually good"

So I don't quite understand why making Rinne a rider (which I liked) makes her a bad Heroine.

There's a standard (or perhaps the standard) that has been established in the Kamen Rider franchise since the very first entry. A heroine, in this franchise, is almost always (if not always) a young woman who is a peer of the protagonists, who exposes her skin to the risks and dangers of the battlefield, yet is able to stand strong and maintain her courage, provides emotional support to the protagonists, and nurtures the bonds between them. Heroines are often the ones who mediate and soften the interpersonal conflicts and misunderstandings between the protagonists, and sometimes even act as diplomatic representations of the protagonists' side. The strength and courage of the heroines don't come from muscles nor power, but from their nurturing nature. Strength and courage is often not about how much power that you have, but about how long you stand the pressure, get beaten down, and stand back up, no matter how much more powerful the adversaries are. This philosophy of "feminine/gentle strength" was even elegantly elaborated in several scenes and dialogue lines in KR Gaim. Damn you Urobuchi! Haha.

The standard trope of heroines in KR franchise is basically the personification of the other side of strength, as stated by Rocky Balboa in the eponymous 2006 film:
"You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done!"

Can a heroine also be a Rider? Of course! I believe that it can be done, but it would be a very very very difficult task of simultaneously fulfilling the enormous roles of the heroine and the secondary Rider. It would require a very careful planning, something I haven't seen in Gotchard.

Gotchard's producers & writers thought that they could fuse 2 important characters into 1, and the resulting character has very few of the properties of those characters. They're attempting to stone 2 birds at once, and end up missing both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Rinne was never meant to be the heroine, so you're judging her by the wrong standard. I recall Minato the producer was clear from the start that Rinne is the second protagonist and we can see in Episode 4 and 38 that she's the one receiving emotional support. Rinne is an alchemist and in this show, alchemists are sometimes Riders. She's the Dragon to Houtarou's Rabbit, hence why their names add up to 10.

I judge her by the standard that has been established in the Kamen Rider franchise since the very first entry. I've elaborated it in my reply to ZeroWolf above.

Soooooooooo... If Rinne is the second protagonist in Gotchard, not the heroine, then who is the heroine? Who is fulfilling that important role? Renge? She's barely had any impact in the story. Houtarou's mom? She's often absent from the story, and more suited to be a parental figure, not a heroine. Clotho? Lachesis? Atropos? No way they're the heroines. Hijiri? She's only appeared in 4 episodes, although she would make a fine heroine if the hero/main character is Kajiki, haha.

If Rinne is not the heroine, then who? Who? Please enlighten me on this one. This is one of the reasons why I've concluded that Gotchard's story is so hollow, vapid, and lethargic. This is one of the reasons why I've concluded that Gotchard is having an identity crisis. It can't even decide who the heroine is! Let that sink in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Then Gotchard's bad heroine is Hotaro. Rinne has two problems in the show: accusations by the audience of bad acting (for which it is enough to watch the specials to be convinced of the opposite) and only two forms, which is negligible for modern secondary ones. I also have an explanation for the second, but this is not a suitable topic. In any case, as for me, Rinne anyway gets less hate than Keiwa and Daiji, and even when she is sad, she does it without hysterics.

I've never had any problem whatsoever with Rinne's actor's performances. She's a novice actor, and performs like a novice actor does. It's already within my expectation. I concur with your statement that Rinne's actor showcases more range in the Class 3G spin-off. Acting performance has rarely been a problem in this franchise. The problem is not the actor's performances, but the writing.

I've also never had any problem with a secondary Rider having only 2 forms, or rather, 2 base forms in KR Majade's case. KR Ixa, KR Accel, KR Birth, KR Meteor, KR Beast, KR Baron (excluding his kaijin form), KR Mach (excluding the Chaser Mach and Mach Chaser forms) also had 2 forms.

And what do you mean by Houtarou being a bad heroine? Houtarou is the hero, not heroine. Like I've mentioned above, the problems with Rinne's character stem from the fact that this story can't even decide who the heroine is. The problems in Gotchard's writing are the results of some serious production problems happening behind the scene. Sooner or later, what's happening behind the scene will eventually make its way into the screen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

I'll admit that I was harsh on Rinne's actress when Gotchard began, but her acting has improved by leaps and bounds. She's especially really good in funny moments, and it's reached the point where I sadly feel she's being wasted in this show.

It's apparent that some BTS shenanigans have derailed the series from its original plan. If I recall correctly, Hasegawa didn't even have a villain group in his original plans for the series. And usually when there's a theme song change like this show had, it's a sign that there's been some sort of creative retool.

Rinne is being wasted in this story, because the story itself is also being wasted. Gotchard's story has sooooooo much potential, perhaps even the most amount of potential in this franchise so far. It's really unfortunate that it has become like this.

I concur with your statement that some serious problems happening behind the scene creep into the story. A customer can often intuitively sense that there's a problem in the kitchen when his order hasn't been delivered in 30 minutes. You nailed it when you said that a change in theme song often signals a major overhaul in creative direction. I interned in several construction projects during university, and Gotchard reminds me of the projects where the clients demanded the architects and contractors to change their plans close to groundbreaking day, and even during construction. Those projects stalled for weeks and months. To me, Gotchard smells like a poorly planned project that is stalling due to too much "improvisation" during construction.

[Paladin]

Seems there is a familiar face showing up in this years' movie...

[Enchilada645]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

I judge her by the standard that has been established in the Kamen Rider franchise since the very first entry. I've elaborated it in my reply to ZeroWolf above.

So what you're saying is franchises can't change or be experimental?

But also this and all of your writing thus far has just given me one point of view of this entire situation. You have a vision of what Kamen Rider should be in your head and anything that strays from that vision is "bad writing". Just say that a Rider series isn't for you and just move on at this point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

Rinne was meant to be the heroine, not a Rider, let alone the second Rider. A heroine has a very important role that can't be replaced by making her a Rider: Providing emotional support to the protagonist(s). Let a heroine be a heroine, not a Rider. A Rider heroine = A bad heroine.

That's also not getting into how just... terrible this statement reads at all. And your attempt at elaborating still does not make this read any better btw.

You're going to refute this point btw, and tell me I'm wrong. I really don't care tbh. But I know what I see because I see the same in a lot of Rider fans. And I'm just putting this out here for anyone who comes across it to see. Because it's a damn problem in this fandom that needs to be addressed and it's tiring to see people try and promote their personal distaste for a series as objective criticism. A rigidness of people unwilling to realize that times are changing and that things will be different than what they originally saw.