[Kiwami]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunred

I have a feeling he could also be the equivalent of what that one teenager was to Gokai Red in one of the early episodes of Gokaiger, the kid who briefly tried fighting as Shinken Red but failed. We won't see him for a while but he'll return in a pivotal episode kind of deal.

That kid is 100% back, even if he's just among the people Shoma saved when they cheer him on to not give up which unlocks his final form.

It is written in the book of "Kamen Rider Things That Happen" so it shall indeed happen.

[Tokumonkey]

A promising first episode, and a huge relief, given that I couldn't bear to keep watching Gotchard given Shouty McLead. Shouma is a more charming character played by someone who's a better actor (although that bar is set limbo-low.)

I clocked a number of things I don't recall seeing in post-Showa Rider before. Lots of interesting little details. That the Gavv driver is a body part is interesting, but more interesting is that we see what a proper mouth is supposed to look like on one of these beings, and Gavv's looks *weird* and *wrong.* Good golly: I think this Kamen Rider might be a cyborg! If so, the toyetic nature of the driver at least has a plausible in-diagesis explanation.

So far, my Gaim/Ex-Aid aspirations for this series haven't been dashed. Fingers crossed it continues to be delightful.

[Sh Ranger]

Gochisousama deshita!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

Why is Shouma chased by the Stomach guards inside the Stomach facility? It seems like he's running away from them, and bringing (or stealing?) something valuable. That valuable thing could be his Henshin Belt Gavv, which is a modified/upgraded version of the standard ones owned by all Granutes. And why is he banished to the Earth, not captured by the guards? Why does that particular (trap?) door lead to the Earth? Does someone control that door (or the whole place) and let him escape?

It's unexpected that the shady confectionery company Stomach also have a bunch of magic doors leading to different places. Shouma's Gavv is a mystery, as Granute Hound expresses surprise at its red color. A Gavv is part of Granute anatomy, so it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that Shouma could just steal and slap on his waist. However, organ transplants exist IRL and most Showa Riders had them. Maybe Shouma's Gavv is a prosthetic, making him a Remodified Granute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zolda

The OP is quite nice, but I much prefer the battle theme. It's more upbeat.

I think the OP will be an acquired.... Taste. After listening a few times, I've decided that I actually like it, but not as much as ALMIGHTY and ChemyStory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

The battle was colorful and stylish. And if we have already seen trips through skyscrapers and races around the city, then a stretch fight between containers is cool.

The container fight scene was awesome for sure! I could hardly contain my excitement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

P.S. Also Hanta`s Master seemed very suspicious to me. Although, IMHO, everyone whose belly we haven?t seen is suspicious here.

He's certainly quick to jump to the conclusion of mariticide. If he's the Granute behind this, then Stomach seem to be using journalism to cover up their unethical method of candy production. I'm curious to know more about the public opinion of them. People today care more strongly about the ethics of food production and the welfare of any livestock involved, but this hasn't reached Granute culture. Even Shouma's indifferent treatment of Gochizous might be seen as controversial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

The hugely important thing is that since these shows have that Ishinomori DNA of exploring humanity and free will and all that, it's critical that both good and evil come from the same place to emphasize that the bad guys aren't just obvious "others" who need to purged from society or whatever. The element of choice is where a ton of nuance comes into the story, and that's why Shouma allowing the Granute that decision before going for the finisher was a staggeringly well-done moment. It suggests Koumura understands Kamen Rider down to its bones in a way you don't see every year. (Not that the variety is a bad thing of course.) So yeah, needless to say this far in, I'm very excited to see where Gavv takes itself over the next 40-50-some episodes.

It's just like Zenkaiger Episode 1 with Juran protecting the kid from Tozitendo, despite being persecuted himself. The theme of prejudice common in Komura's works fits so naturally in the Kamen Rider setting, reminding that Riders often come from the same source as the monsters and the moral that being a monster doesn't mean you have to act like one. Shouma also acts like a happy guy who loves to eat and party, while hiding a bitter sadness of being detached from his family and the memory of a past he can never return to. Makes me think that he indulges in gluttony as a distraction from his tragic life, like Shinnosuke with his milk candy.

Komura created the clever name Hiroi Hajime, with kanji meaning "the first to pick up", as in the first person to pick up Shouma. Maybe Morichi should take notes from her! Hajime did a good job here as a viewer perspective and it's cool how the first episode focuses everything on the setting and Shouma, leaving next episode to reveal more about other main characters Hanto and Sachika. I wouldn't mind seeing Hajime appear as an occasional guest though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Shoma's stronger than normal humans even untransformed to be tougher than a speeding van, though he fares the same to monsters, where Shoma's unable to fight Granute Hound until he becomes Gavv.

Like Orphenochs, fall damage can only render Shouma unconscious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Llyot42

The gochizo being used as a replenishment for the battle damaged armor is a clever way to justifies the large amount of trinkets, also a way to emphasize the "mouth" aspect of gavv

While this seems like a downside on the surface, the fact that Shouma can produce so many Gochizous in a short amount of time means he can probably stay in a struggling fight when most other Riders would get dehenshined. Even though Vice was compared to Venom before, I think this is more fitting for Shouma, as I don't recall seeing Vice actually eat anything other than that one time he removed his mask.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairyKing

Maybe it's just a quirk of the fan-translation that I watched, but I found it interesting that Shoma referred to the Gochizo as his "minions" rather than friends or partners. It makes sense with how many he can make (though I bet not having any of the flavor he needs will be used to put him in a pinch at some point), and more importantly with how he treats them as expendable! I was worried he would repeat the "befriend the collectable monsters" gimmick Houtaro did, but it's actually very different. He also said "I can use these too," and I wonder if that implies other Granutes can also create and use minions?

I was pretty sure the Gochizous were going to be treated as expendable, but the surprising part is that they're willing accomplices to their own deaths, literally inviting Shouma to eat them and instructing him which mouth to eat them with. Shouma casually asks a Vrocan if it can die to become a bike and it's like, "what kind of bike?". Like they're all Mr. Muffin or something. I was expecting Shouma to have to go hunting for them in the wild, like Nitou with Magic Land's mayonnaise fish.

People are complaining how Henshin Belt Gavv's sounds are unpleasant, which I agree, but like, you guys try making cool non-painful sounds while being chomped to death! Just another reminder of Shouma's monstrous nature, that even henshining requires a sacrifice. Anyway, I like how it drools the belt strap around Shouma's waist!

Overall, a delicious sweet premiere that leaves me hungry for a savory dish! A shame that people are using it as fuel to dunk on Gotchard though, regardless of opinions. I think it would be much better if we can judge Gavv on its own merits. Besides, Houtarou enjoys creating food as much as Shouma enjoys eating it and the only point of creating amazing food is to give somebody an amazing culinary experience. While food can be an art, it's an art that exists to be destroyed and we should remember this: Food is both life and death.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwami

As in, having actually threatening villains, creative fighting choreography and a bike action scene* being featured. Aka three things both Geats and Gavv have, but Gotchard lacks.

Would say Gotchard does have creative fighting choreography with the alchemy use, for first episode. The villains are also said to be strong points of Gotchard (of which the Dark Sisters are featured in first episode).

A̶n̶d̶ ̶G̶e̶a̶t̶s̶ ̶n̶e̶v̶e̶r̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶3̶ ̶m̶a̶i̶n̶ ̶R̶i̶d̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶ ̶b̶i̶k̶e̶.̶.̶.̶.̶

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

My main issue with Geats's first episode was that I was personally put off by Ace's arrogance. It took a long while for him to grow on me, whereas I'm already more sympathetic towards Shouma as a character.

For primary Riders it's definitely unusual, as only Tendou and Tsukasa are similar types. I'd think Ace is a milder case than most because he does regard himself highly but doesn't look down or be condescending to others. Perhaps this is also due to me knowing much more arrogant characters in the various secondary, tertiary, or other supporting Riders but dunno.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaikaijuSokogeki01

We also established that the world is reset after every DGP so everyone who was killed, besides the Riders, just came back to life. Unless Gavv pulls some Takahashi-level bullshit out of its ass to bring back people who've been eaten for a long time, I am optimistic that death will be an actual dramatic stake in this show.

It creates the question wondering which Riders in the DGP genuinely care about other people, or are just using civilians as a means to get ahead in the game (Michinaga's question and assumption to Takeshi), considering that yes they can be reset (though turns out, not exactly all), and that saving people gives bonus points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokumonkey

So far, my Gaim/Ex-Aid aspirations for this series haven't been dashed. Fingers crossed it continues to be delightful.

Well.... Gavv has the same producer as Gaim's, Naomi Takebe, returning just after one series being absent after Geats (which features both Takebe and Takahashi).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Even Shouma's indifferent treatment of Gochizous might be seen as controversial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

While this seems like a downside on the surface, the fact that Shouma can produce so many Gochizous in a short amount of time means he can probably stay in a struggling fight when most other Riders would get dehenshined. Even though Vice was compared to Venom before, I think this is more fitting for Shouma, as I don't recall seeing Vice actually eat anything other than that one time he removed his mask.

To be fair, it's the Gochizos that ask Shoma to eat them, and Shoma adhered to that. Unless you mean about the part of Shoma seeing them as minions rather than friends/comrades. Though, it's an unusual case that it's the hero that is able to produce minions/mooks/fodders, rather than the villains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Shouma also acts like a happy guy who loves to eat and party, while hiding a bitter sadness of being detached from his family and the memory of a past he can never return to. Makes me think that he indulges in gluttony as a distraction from his tragic life, like Shinnosuke with his milk candy.

Though there's nothing morally wrong to be sad over something traumatic, or to show concern over a tragedy that befalls others (e.g. the truck drivers), albeit it may drive someone to poor decisions if they're consumed by it, but so far it is the reason why Shoma is a goody two shoes. Eiji is what's considered the most noble protagonist even among the lead Riders (with other being Yusuke), and he's definitely this type.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Komura created the clever name Hiroi Hajime, with kanji meaning "the first to pick up", as in the first person to pick up Shouma. Maybe Morichi should take notes from her! Hajime did a good job here as a viewer perspective and it's cool how the first episode focuses everything on the setting and Shouma, leaving next episode to reveal more about other main characters Hanto and Sachika. I wouldn't mind seeing Hajime appear as an occasional guest though.

I think there are a lot more cases of character's names being meaningful throughout the franchise though than Hajime. Like, Shouichi meaning "first call", Makoto meaning "truth" (cop), Shinji meaning "to believe" (in brightness), Ren meaning "group", Shu(ichi) meaning "tumor", Tsukasa having a kanji for "gate" (dimensional wanderer), Hidari meaning "left" (Shotaro's the left side of W), Emu Hojo meaning "eternal dream" (gamer) + "life treasure" (doctor), etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Overall, a delicious sweet premiere that leaves me hungry for a savory dish! A shame that people are using it as fuel to dunk on Gotchard though, regardless of opinions. I think it would be much better if we can judge Gavv on its own merits. Besides, Houtarou enjoys creating food as much as Shouma enjoys eating it and the only point of creating amazing food is to give somebody an amazing culinary experience. While food can be an art, it's an art that exists to be destroyed and we should remember this: Food is both life and death.

While I disagree with using other series to put down another one, it can feel that by this, people think the opposite in putting other series to elevate lighthearted stuff like Ghost, Saber, or Gotchard is the right thing to do, because the people who dislike or criticize something so positive, uplifting, inoffensive and optimistic can be the ones condemned and deemed as a red flag (like how some may wish bad things on those who don't like Gentaro), particularly if by contrast, they like more edgy and grimdark series such as Geats (considered the culprit for Gotchard hate, before now Gavv may be that too), which can have them accused as terrible people who just wants to spread misery to others and glorify the dark parts of society.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

For primary Riders it's definitely unusual, as only Tendou and Tsukasa are similar type.

Now it's off topic, which belongs in "General Rider's Thoughts", but since we're talking about it, I think that Tsukasa and Ace are actually the most different riders in the entire franchise. Ace is as goal-oriented as possible, while for Tsukasa only the path is important, and the goal, in principle, may be absent. Ace is self-confident, while Tsukasa is narcissistic. When Keiwa asked the riders to save his sister, Ace became outraged and yelled at him. When Kaito refused to save Natsumi, Tsukasa punched him. The latter is especially eloquent, since editing masters can simply glue these two scenes together, cutting out Tacoon and Di-End, thus getting a confrontation between Decade and Geats. Plus, how can you imagine Ace falling victim to Natsumi's super move?
What these two riders have in common is only an initial negative impression, and that has a different reason. Ace goes towards a goal that, despite all his talents, he has not been able to achieve for 2000 years. Tsukasa is just a "passing Kamen Rider". The same episodes where Apollo Geist put Natsumi in a coma show the difference well. Even in later episodes, when Neon and Tsumuri gets kidnapped or Sara ends up inside a tree, Ace remains the same competent and aloof person. While Tsukasa runs around the city almost crying, pushing away those who want to help and asking for help from those who don't want it.
Because the narcissistic asshole Decade is just a mask for casual acquaintances, so that they won?t be too sad when he leaves. And Ace, despite all the deception, shows his nature quite early. And, even though he has a lot of positive qualities, the negative ones are more noticeable.
Tendou is not quite the opposite, but his differences are also noticeable. The most obvious: during Jamatoball he would announce:

And in general, those who say that Tendou is similar to Ace should reconsider Kabuto and remember how capricious MC Tendou was. Do you think he would agree to play in DGP for more than a couple of episodes? And even then, each mission would then begin with Tendou declaring that he would not take part in them. After which he would go to feed the girl Juka, the rest of the riders would lose, they would come to ask him for help, he would refuse, and then still come at the most crucial moment. But in general, this is unlikely, because my grandmother probably said that if someone promises to fulfill your wishes in exchange for services, then they will deceive you. So Tendou would most likely just steal the driver and core id and run away.
The main difference between Tendou and Ace is that Ace is an empathic egoist. That is, he puts his own desires first, but at the same time recognizes the value of the desires of others. At the same time, Tendou clearly values ​​the wishes of Juki, Hiyori, and perhaps even Kagami above his own. But, at the same time, he is egocentric and therefore will strive to realize not so much their desires as his understanding of their desires. And this completely contradicts Ace?s worldview, which recognizes all desires (except for some controversial cases) and values ​​the will to fight for them.
Plus, we must admit that Tendou and Tsukasa have a much better sense of humor than Ace. Comedy is an important part of these shows and even the darkest of them, so it's worth noting that animal puns never made anyone but Ace laugh.
If Ace really resembles anyone, it is, IMHO, Kaito Kumon. Both of them initially value only the opinion of the strong, but at the same time recognize the need to help the weak. Yes, Ace is more friendly and pleasant, but this can be attributed to more (much more!) life experience. Moreover, he can also be harsh and rude, and Kaito sometimes manages to charm people (Zack, Mai, Yoko, partially Kouta). The difference between them is that, having found himself close to divine power, Ace decides to make all people happy, and Kaito comes to everyone?s favorite maniac: ?Only the dead do not suffer.? But this is mostly due to their different roles in their respective shows.

Quote:

(like how some may wish bad things on those who don't like Gentaro)

Oh, these people would be so in 2011!

But, let's be honest, on those rare occasions when someone doesn't like Gentaro (although, as we already discussed, few people call him their favorite rider), they don't like him for his loudness, stupidity and monotony of solutions to problems, and not for the light tone and optimism. I'm sure a dark show with the main character being a stupid, loud schoolboy would irritate viewers much more. Actually, the second season of Amazons is partial confirmation of this.
Plus, if we talk about Japan, Gentaro may also not like the fact that his appearance is clearly a school bully, but at the same time he does not have any of their shortcomings. In this way, he seems to justify characters similar to him to the target audience. That is, Gentaro's image is clearly inspired by the Crows-Zero franchise:

In principle, he is more than just inspired: he looks like someone kicked out of Suzuran for being too friendly. And it?s unlikely that parents would want their children to admire such guys.

[Leo Novum]

I have returned to this website after being unactive for quite some time to say...

..I liked this episode. I hope Gavv stays good and becomes as good as Ex-Aid.

[Kiwami]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo Novum

I have returned to this website after being unactive for quite some time to say...

..I liked this episode. I hope Gavv stays good and becomes as good as Ex-Aid.

It's good to see you again!

I also hope Gavv can hold its ground, if not become even better over time!

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

For primary Riders it's definitely unusual, as only Tendou and Tsukasa are similar types.

And Sento.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

To be fair, it's the Gochizos that ask Shoma to eat them, and Shoma adhered to that. Unless you mean about the part of Shoma seeing them as minions rather than friends/comrades. Though, it's an unusual case that it's the hero that is able to produce minions/mooks/fodders, rather than the villains.

Asking him is the weird part! Like, you would be confused if a cow asked to become cheeseburger, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Though there's nothing morally wrong to be sad over something traumatic, or to show concern over a tragedy that befalls others (e.g. the truck drivers), albeit it may drive someone to poor decisions if they're consumed by it, but so far it is the reason why Shoma is a goody two shoes. Eiji is what's considered the most noble protagonist even among the lead Riders (with other being Yusuke), and he's definitely this type.

Godai and Eiji are noble, but I'd say there are other Primary Riders who rival them in this trait. Shinji stayed true to his philosophy and fought to protect everybody, including his fellow Riders. Kenzaki is basically Eiji, except with a dead parents backstory. Takeru couldn't risk his life, so he risked his afterlife to protect everybody, even believing in Adel's goodness deep down.

Regarding Shouma, it's way too early to put a label on him like that. People did that to Secondary Keiwa and got angry when he turned out different. First impressions can be deceiving, so we should be patient and see how Shouma reacts to more complex moral dilemmata.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I think there are a lot more cases of character's names being meaningful throughout the franchise though than Hajime. Like, Shouichi meaning "first call", Makoto meaning "truth" (cop), Shinji meaning "to believe" (in brightness), Ren meaning "group", Shu(ichi) meaning "tumor", Tsukasa having a kanji for "gate" (dimensional wanderer), Hidari meaning "left" (Shotaro's the left side of W), Emu Hojo meaning "eternal dream" (gamer) + "life treasure" (doctor), etc.

Those are cool as well. I appreciate it when a writer seriously considers their names. The "Sin" in Sin Specter is pronounced "Shin", also meaning Makoto!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

While I disagree with using other series to put down another one, it can feel that by this, people think the opposite in putting other series to elevate lighthearted stuff like Ghost, Saber, or Gotchard is the right thing to do, because the people who dislike or criticize something so positive, uplifting, inoffensive and optimistic can be the ones condemned and deemed as a red flag (like how some may wish bad things on those who don't like Gentaro), particularly if by contrast, they like more edgy and grimdark series such as Geats (considered the culprit for Gotchard hate, before now Gavv may be that too), which can have them accused as terrible people who just wants to spread misery to others and glorify the dark parts of society.

Well, I wouldn't wish harm on anybody who dislikes such uplifting shows, as that would go against the spirit of friendship that those shows encourage. If Gentarou, Takeru, Touma and Houtarou wouldn't do it, then as their fans, we shouldn't dishonor them by defending them in such a hostile way, as that would make us the same kind of evil that those characters fought against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Now it's off topic, which belongs in "General Rider's Thoughts", but since we're talking about it, I think that Tsukasa and Ace are actually the most different riders in the entire franchise. Ace is as goal-oriented as possible, while for Tsukasa only the path is important, and the goal, in principle, may be absent.

For Tsukasa, this would be the result of development. He was initially focused on his goal of finding his place to belong and only when he found his own world and got rejected by it did he finally find meaning in his friends with whom he shared the journey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Plus, how can you imagine Ace falling victim to Natsumi's super move?

I guess this would depend on the nerves in Ukiyo Ace's body rather than his personality. It's an involuntary reaction after all, which was used to expose the Tsukasa Worm in World of Kabuto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

What these two riders have in common is only an initial negative impression, and that has a different reason. Ace goes towards a goal that, despite all his talents, he has not been able to achieve for 2000 years. Tsukasa is just a "passing Kamen Rider". The same episodes where Apollo Geist put Natsumi in a coma show the difference well. Even in later episodes, when Neon and Tsumuri gets kidnapped or Sara ends up inside a tree, Ace remains the same competent and aloof person. While Tsukasa runs around the city almost crying, pushing away those who want to help and asking for help from those who don't want it.

Yeah, this is where we can clearly see the difference between these guys, that Tsukasa puts much more weight in his emotions and connections, so once he realizes that his goal didn't make him happy, he focuses on what actually matters to him. Tsukasa found happiness despite his world rejecting him, while Ace had his world from the start, several lifetimes over, yet refused to enjoy it. I imagine Tsukasa would actually get ticked off at Ace's lack of gratitude for having so many places and families to belong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

And in general, those who say that Tendou is similar to Ace should reconsider Kabuto and remember how capricious MC Tendou was. Do you think he would agree to play in DGP for more than a couple of episodes?

DGP is a game to obtain your ideal world, so Tendo who claimed this world was made for him would have no desire to change it, unlike Ace who has changed it repeatedly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

The main difference between Tendou and Ace is that Ace is an empathic egoist. That is, he puts his own desires first, but at the same time recognizes the value of the desires of others. At the same time, Tendou clearly values ​​the wishes of Juki, Hiyori, and perhaps even Kagami above his own. But, at the same time, he is egocentric and therefore will strive to realize not so much their desires as his understanding of their desires. And this completely contradicts Ace?s worldview, which recognizes all desires (except for some controversial cases) and values ​​the will to fight for them.

Tendo is the sun, so he lives to share his life-saving warmth with others. The sun also scalds, but his heroism shines in the morals people learn when they meet him and strive to become stronger to confront him. While he shows the path of heaven, walking that path is a choice that others must make for themselves, so he won't help them beyond that. Ace sometimes has moments like this as well, teaching Keiwa not to trust in rivals and using DR to abolish DGP and create a world where happiness is free for everybody. Both characters value individuality, but while Tendo accepts his place in the world, Ace denies his place and becomes a god instead. Niram's speech to Ace is similar to how I imagine Tendo would talk to him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Plus, we must admit that Tendou and Tsukasa have a much better sense of humor than Ace. Comedy is an important part of these shows and even the darkest of them, so it's worth noting that animal puns never made anyone but Ace laugh.

This is so true. Ace is cool when he doesn't try, but when he tries, he becomes a goof.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Because the narcissistic asshole Decade is just a mask for casual acquaintances, so that they won?t be too sad when he leaves. And Ace, despite all the deception, shows his nature quite early. And, even though he has a lot of positive qualities, the negative ones are more noticeable.

Yeah, "won't be too sad when he leaves", a common reason to justify/excuse asshole behaviors. Which may apply for Ace too because he's living for 2000 years which'd mean he'd be always separated from other mortals who won't live nearly as long. I just want straightforward care like just directly telling them more (to get your point across or explaining something wrong within them), to be encouraged more, rather than encouraging being rude or aggressive and justifying those as tough love, preventing sadness, being blunt/honest, etc. It's easy but I find it more sincere for someone to just be straightforward about how they care for someone than act coldly and have them perceived as might or might not be a tsundere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

And Sento.

Not Sento. Though Sento does view himself highly, he's also still goody-two-shoes and like most other MCs as generally has a firm moral compass to reject any type of wrongdoing like killing Aoba or Banjou's suggested method that would cause casualties. The other ones are anti-heroic types who'd mistreat others or employ pragmatic/underhanded actions.

There's a difference between arrogant types like Sonic the Hedgehog (I think Sento qualifies as this), or types like Iron Man/Tony Stark or worse Lelouch (which the others fit).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Regarding Shouma, it's way too early to put a label on him like that. People did that to Secondary Keiwa and got angry when he turned out different. First impressions can be deceiving, so we should be patient and see how Shouma reacts to more complex moral dilemmata.

I mean, people are still mad when even an actual asshole (which should have their bad traits more blatant) pulls a heel turn like Supana resorting to Chemy genocide in late Gotchard.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Well, I wouldn't wish harm on anybody who dislikes such uplifting shows, as that would go against the spirit of friendship that those shows encourage. If Gentarou, Takeru, Touma and Houtarou wouldn't do it, then as their fans, we shouldn't dishonor them by defending them in such a hostile way, as that would make us the same kind of evil that those characters fought against.

People can just have black and white view, and it seems this type is the more vocal one on bringing up about morality talk. To only deem the idealized paragons, and at worst those who sided with them (can mean the fanbase who adore them for irl), as the good ones (white), and have anything that aren't exactly like them deemed as evil and paint them as acceptable targets for ridicule, mistreatment, antagonism, regardless of the scale like if they're actual mass murderer or even having disagreement to the heroes. There can be villainous characters (not talking about KR or Toku specific) that are based on appreciating true heroes' nobility, deeming anything that aren't like true heroes as threats that must be eliminated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, this is where we can clearly see the difference between these guys, that Tsukasa puts much more weight in his emotions and connections, so once he realizes that his goal didn't make him happy, he focuses on what actually matters to him. Tsukasa found happiness despite his world rejecting him, while Ace had his world from the start, several lifetimes over, yet refused to enjoy it. I imagine Tsukasa would actually get ticked off at Ace's lack of gratitude for having so many places and families to belong.

The wishes are all just a long game for him to eventually uncover the DGP's secrets. Him wanting to be always chosen in the DGP and live without working makes sure he can add up his experience and dominate the DGP to keep winning and complete the puzzle by his further wishes. His wish to become family with the DGP staff is to keep contact with them and gather more info about the DGP, and his attempted next wish is to become someone that knows even more about the DGP, first staff, then Game Master (after Win tells him Game Master knows more than the staff). He eventually learns that the DGP is using his mother for wishes by absorbing people's lives and happiness and later he strives to not use his Creation powers the same way, albeit initially are held back by his mortal body's limitations until Suel's words got to him.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

The other ones are anti-heroic types who'd mistreat others or employ pragmatic/underhanded actions.

So, didn't we discuss that an anti-hero is someone who does good things for bad reasons? In this regard, shouldn?t Tsukasa and Ace be more likely to be considered anti-villains, since motives like finding a home or finding a mother cannot be called bad?