[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I mean, seems that other well-intentioned extremist type of characters would also be generally like that too, they also think they're stuck in a shitty situation and would prefer to save everyone, they already tried anything they possibly can, but they feel they have to take extreme measures to save the world and that their method is the only choice, including looking down on the ones who oppose them (e.g. the heroes) as naive.

Yes, but you also need to understand that popular culture is designed to maintain the current status quo and convince people that a shitty situation isn't so shitty. That is, the overwhelming majority of works contain this thought, sometimes even unconsciously, because it is natural. Also, since the Cold War, two approaches to such propaganda have emerged. Communist in the form of praising one?s own current and future successes. And capitalist, focused on the negative portrayal of one?s ideological opponents. The latter turned out to be more successful because it is easier to believe that others are terrible than to believe that everything is fine with us when reality convinces us otherwise. But this does not change the fact that this is also a lie or, at least, an exaggeration.
And here comes a similar portrayal of extremists in popular culture. For no matter the motive, the radical always threatens the status quo. But, if you try to approach the issue with a cool head, it turns out that without extremists, humanity would not have progressed further than the invention of fire. Any progress (or, more correctly, change, because it is also wrong to deny negative consequences) in history, science and art happened thanks to the extremists of their time. And the fact that the current situation is clearly better than the Stone Age proves that in most cases their contribution is still positive.
Returning from the general to the specific, Kota is essentially also an extremist, because:
a) His approach involves a risk in which no one would survive;
b) Because of his actions (not only, but also) those who most likely would have survived Takatora's plan, like Ryoma, died.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Also, since the Cold War, two approaches to such propaganda have emerged. Communist in the form of praising one's own current and future successes. And capitalist, focused on the negative portrayal of one's ideological opponents. The latter turned out to be more successful because it is easier to believe that others are terrible than to believe that everything is fine with us when reality convinces us otherwise. But this does not change the fact that this is also a lie or, at least, an exaggeration.

"History is written by the winners". Yeah, this is also something you need to understand, as someone who thinks a bad reputation for heroes is "deserved". Reputation and politics are also something that can be weaponized by bad guys, not just raw power or weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

And here comes a similar portrayal of extremists in popular culture. For no matter the motive, the radical always threatens the status quo. But, if you try to approach the issue with a cool head, it turns out that without extremists, humanity would not have progressed further than the invention of fire. Any progress (or, more correctly, change, because it is also wrong to deny negative consequences) in history, science and art happened thanks to the extremists of their time. And the fact that the current situation is clearly better than the Stone Age proves that in most cases their contribution is still positive.

There can be some positive outcomes coming out from horrific situations (from anything, really), but doesn't mean that it's the only way to reach that progression or it should be encouraged/normalized to 'reach progress', like allowing people to open fire towards civilians in hopes to 'reach progress'. And that if someone involved in a progression happened to have done terrible things, doesn't mean that said terrible things need to be emulated, particularly if unrelated to said progression. Don't blindly emulate everything in something that produces something good. Like convenience, harmless things (such as wanting to take less time to reach something) can be a drive to want progression too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Returning from the general to the specific, Kota is essentially also an extremist, because:
a) His approach involves a risk in which no one would survive;
b) Because of his actions (not only, but also) those who most likely would have survived Takatora's plan, like Ryoma, died.

While one failing would possibly have no one surviving, I don't understand the thinking that the extremist's plan will always guarantee better results or fulfill their or the fanbase's expectations. If Takatora actually gave a billion Driver to a billion humans and exterminated the rest to prevent them becoming Inves, what's the guarantee of the surviving billion to live normally or prosper? Like them failing to adjust to the world's changes (reminder Helheim would still took over), turning into warring species until last man standing (like Roshuo's case in Femushinmu), or still getting blindsided/foiled by other worse villains' plans.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Like convenience, harmless things (such as wanting to take less time to reach something) can be a drive to want progression too.

Perhaps, but even for the sake of this idea you need to allow yourself to at least mentally go beyond the boundaries. As for terrible actions for the sake of good goals, violence is almost always preceded by first attempts at a peaceful solution, then a little bloodshed, and only then comes the time of massacre. Another thing is that these most unsuccessful peaceful attempts can be kept silent if the party plays the role of a villain in history. The exception is marginalized people with mental disabilities, for whom the idea is just a reason, and the primary desire is violence.

Quote:

While one failing would possibly have no one surviving, I don't understand the thinking that the extremist's plan will always guarantee better results or fulfill their or the fanbase's expectations. If Takatora actually gave a billion Driver to a billion humans and exterminated the rest to prevent them becoming Inves, what's the guarantee of the surviving billion to live normally or prosper? Like them failing to adjust to the world's changes (reminder Helheim would still took over), turning into warring species until last man standing (like Roshuo's case in Femushinmu), or still getting blindsided/foiled by other worse villains' plans.

I think it's not so much a matter of finding an acceptable outcome for the future, but rather justifying Takatora?s motives. It is obvious that he looked into the coming future after the rescue, concentrating all his efforts precisely on the production of the maximum number of drivers. And in general, Gaim is a show where at the beginning the hero unknowingly kills a friend to save people, and in the end he does the same thing, but consciously.So within this story, the need to sacrifice lives for others is justified and it makes Takatoru closer to the good guys. And so, yes, I agree that it would be very difficult for the remaining humanity to implement his plan.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Another thing is that these most unsuccessful peaceful attempts can be kept silent if the party plays the role of a villain in history.

That'd be just a case of bad guys winning but the good ones would be the ones kept silent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

I think it's not so much a matter of finding an acceptable outcome for the future, but rather justifying Takatora?s motives. It is obvious that he looked into the coming future after the rescue, concentrating all his efforts precisely on the production of the maximum number of drivers. And in general, Gaim is a show where at the beginning the hero unknowingly kills a friend to save people, and in the end he does the same thing, but consciously.So within this story, the need to sacrifice lives for others is justified and it makes Takatoru closer to the good guys. And so, yes, I agree that it would be very difficult for the remaining humanity to implement his plan.

I'm bringing that up due to you criticizing Kouta for risking everyone that none would survive, which sounds like saying if no one opposes Takatora, things will be better in a billion surviving rather than none. I don't know why it's completely believed that those extremists' plans will go smoothly or achieve the expected outcome.

And about Yuya's death, not everything a hero does or the result of what they did should be celebrated. Yuya's death is a tragic loss for the heroes, a bad outcome or a failure for them. Doesn't mean they should never move on from said failure, but doesn't mean that what happened to Yuya should be perpetuated or encouraged. They'd be trying to make sure that what happened to Yuya won't happen again, not continuing the 'sacrificing friend for others' that happened there. The end solution is looking for ways to drive away Helheim from Earth.

Ryuki also had the ending of letting people die (e.g. the Kanzaki siblings), but the practice of sacrificing innocent people against their will is still opposed, like Shinji opposing Kagawa wanting to sacrifice Yui or his own family.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

And about Yuya's death, not everything a hero does or the result of what they did should be celebrated. Yuya's death is a tragic loss for the heroes, a bad outcome or a failure for them. Doesn't mean they should never move on from said failure, but doesn't mean that what happened to Yuya should be perpetuated or encouraged. They'd be trying to make sure that what happened to Yuya won't happen again, not continuing the 'sacrificing friend for others' that happened there. The end solution is looking for ways to drive away Helheim from Earth.

It's a tragic outcome, but the show makes it clear that Kouta had no other choice. Again, the franchise previously had examples of Blade and OOO, where the conflict between the hero and his friend was resolved relatively safely. But Gaim chose exactly this way to end the story. And in the same way, Takatorа has no choice. More precisely, he does not see him until Kouta convinces him. And if this doesn?t happen right away, then what?s strange about the fact that Takatora puts the opinion of Ryoma?s genius above the statements of a boy who gets by with unprestigious part-time jobs?
And it seems to me that Takatoru is given too much responsibility. Yes, he is a leader, organizer, sponsor and even the first test subject, but at the same time he only brings Ryoma?s idea to life. It is Ryoma who created the driver. He also clearly has little value for human lives. And, although this is speculation, perhaps if Ryoma had focused more attention on accelerating the production of drivers, instead of inventing new types of locks, weapons and recording jingles, then the number of those able to survive would have been noticeably greater. Although then it would no longer be tokusatsu.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

It's a tragic outcome, but the show makes it clear that Kouta had no other choice. Again, the franchise previously had examples of Blade and OOO, where the conflict between the hero and his friend was resolved relatively safely. But Gaim chose exactly this way to end the story. And in the same way, Takatorа has no choice. More precisely, he does not see him until Kouta convinces him. And if this doesn?t happen right away, then what?s strange about the fact that Takatora puts the opinion of Ryoma?s genius above the statements of a boy who gets by with unprestigious part-time jobs?

In general, KR had the kaijins being detonated, like the MOTWs, Kaito was also a kaijin at that point, but those'd also oppose sacrificing innocents against their will. Ryoma's a genius, but Takatora has a poor judgment of people's character. He didn't recognize that his circle and supposed allies are quite obviously flat-out evil, nowhere near dedicated to execute his plan, have no interest in saving humanity, and are actually conspiring against him. Micchy says Takatora has a habit of trusting people he shouldn't in ep. 23. It's not only his Yggdrasill 'allies', but Takatora also at first was in denial about the truth behind Micchy that he's not simply a stoic diligent student Takatora sees him as.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

And it seems to me that Takatoru is given too much responsibility. Yes, he is a leader, organizer, sponsor and even the first test subject, but at the same time he only brings Ryoma?s idea to life. It is Ryoma who created the driver. He also clearly has little value for human lives. And, although this is speculation, perhaps if Ryoma had focused more attention on accelerating the production of drivers, instead of inventing new types of locks, weapons and recording jingles, then the number of those able to survive would have been noticeably greater. Although then it would no longer be tokusatsu.

Outside of the jingles, locks are needed for people to eat, using the Sengoku Driver so that people absorb the nutrition without the need to de-henshin in a Helheim filled world. Stronger locks and weapons are needed for self-defense, likely if there'd be still some Inves left when the Project Ark is done. The extermination of 6 billion people is done to prevent the ones without Sengoku Driver turning into Inves, and the remaining 1 billion has to live as Armored Riders (without de-henshin) for the rest of their lives with self-defense equipments.