[Sh Ranger]

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Originally Posted by Grupletruge

Is everyone just afraid it will be a repeat of previous over-used writers? IDK, maybe I'm over-interpreting it, but it seems like a uni-lateral cry of "Oh NO! what if they overuse Takahashi!?!"

Pretty much and I think this is a perfectly valid concern. I'm glad you have no problem, but many others have noticed a clear decline in writing quality in the second half of his shows and I see that problem getting worse, not better, the more that Toei bring him back, unless they do something about it, like adding more secondary writers to help him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

My problem with Zeztz so far is that he might be grasshopper-themed. We've had two main Riders with grasshoppers as their main theme (01 and Gotchard), and I really wish we could get back to off-the-wall ones, since Gavv was such a nice breath of fresh air from having 5 straight animal-themed seasons.

Oh, we've actually had a lot more than only 2 grasshopper-themed Primary Riders! As far as I can recall, there's also Rider 1, 2, V3, SkyRider, Shin, ZO, J, Double and OOO. I guess I just made your problem worse, huh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

I wouldn't be thrilled. I love Ex-Aid, but each show since then has been consistently diminishing returns.

I have the opposite opinion that each show he's written has been an improvement, albeit by such small margins that it becomes meh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

In terms of tropes, while Inoue's weakest point is the finales, Takahashi's is the 30th episodes. That period is generally considered the worst point in a year-long show, but when you look at the entire franchise, it's actually in Takahashi's work when it's really bad. Other writers handle it better, if not great.

Yeah, I remember that blog where Takebe mentioned how Takahashi got impatient with the Sakurai siblings' arc during the 30s and she basically had to calm him down. Sounds like Takahashi is difficult to work with, due to how complex he writes his plots. However, I think we should forgive him for Zero One's 30s, since real life was the main problem. I think another show whose quality seriously suffers in the 30s is Kabuto.

[MKDremare]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Oh, we've actually had a lot more than only 2 grasshopper-themed Primary Riders! As far as I can recall, there's also Rider 1, 2, V3, SkyRider, Shin, ZO, J, Double and OOO. I guess I just made your problem worse, huh.

wow i love it when people exaggerate my issues to try and make me look like a moron, always incredibly cool and funny to have my words be misread and misinterpreted like this /sarcasm

My concern isn't that he's grasshopper themed. And I'm not a dumb enough idiot that I don't know that grasshoppers have been an integral part of Kamen Rider motifs since the literal first series (why else would the majority of them have bug-like compound eyes?). My concern was that we only just had one off-the-wall Reiwa season with Gavv being a candy/snack-themed Rider. And that I wanted more off-the-wall seasons before getting another primarily animal-themed season.

Like you focused on the wrong part. This is the main takeaway of what I said here, bold and underlined:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

My problem with Zeztz so far is that he might be grasshopper-themed. We've had two main Riders with grasshoppers as their main theme (01 and Gotchard), and I really wish we could get back to off-the-wall ones, since Gavv was such a nice breath of fresh air from having 5 straight animal-themed seasons.

I'll admit that I forgot to specify in Reiwa, because maybe I should've. That's on me, and I'll own that. But I also think the fact that I only mentioned the two Reiwa Riders with grasshopper themes is enough of a clue that I'm talking about Reiwa Riders exclusively.

Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't mean, or exaggerate what I say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

In terms of tropes, while Inoue's weakest point is the finales, Takahashi's is the 30th episodes. That period is generally considered the worst point in a year-long show, but when you look at the entire franchise, it's actually in Takahashi's work when it's really bad. Other writers handle it better, if not great.

I don't really consider the late 20s-30s of Takanashi's seasons to be better or worse than other seasons. They're all sort of the same to me in quality, in that they're just an awkward transitory period between the mid arc and final arc. Sure, there're still good episodes in them, but sometimes the late 20s-30s feel like they're skippable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, I remember that blog where Takebe mentioned how Takahashi got impatient with the Sakurai siblings' arc during the 30s and she basically had to calm him down. Sounds like Takahashi is difficult to work with, due to how complex he writes his plots. However, I think we should forgive him for Zero One's 30s, since real life was the main problem. I think another show whose quality seriously suffers in the 30s is Kabuto.

Honestly I'd put responsibility onto Takebe, too. Takanashi had planned on writing Keiwa's antagonist arc earlier on, and Sara was supposed to die earlier, too, but she kept having him push the death further and further back so that Sara could keep being a beacon of light in Geats for as long as possible.

So I can get why Takanashi was beginning to be impatient with Keiwa and Sara's arc in the 30s, with Takebe telling him to push Sara's death further and further back. Neither are wrong, but neither are right.

[Mesnick]

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Originally Posted by MKDremare

My concern was that we only just had one off-the-wall Reiwa season with Gavv being a candy/snack-themed Rider.

I actually think that Gavv's uniqueness is way, way overdone. Gavv's costumes are certainly worthy of praise, but the reaction to them is like most of the audience hasn't seen anything beyond the first ten riders. I mean, we've already seen a candy-themed Kamen Rider 5 years ago. And even such an old concept as a train rafting with a peach, in my opinion, is much crazier than a chocolate cowboy.

[MKDremare]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

I actually think that Gavv's uniqueness is way, way overdone. Gavv's costumes are certainly worthy of praise, but the reaction to them is like most of the audience hasn't seen anything beyond the first ten riders. I mean, we've already seen a candy-themed Kamen Rider 5 years ago. And even such an old concept as a train rafting with a peach, in my opinion, is much crazier than a chocolate cowboy.

I don't think there's been really that much of overstatement on Gavv's uniqueness. Most of the time I think it's more like people being happy that we finally have a change in pace after having, again, 5 seasons of animal-themed (partially or completely) Riders. At least with the main Riders, since other Riders tend to be a lot freer with what motifs they have, like in Saber. And honestly, a candy/snack themed Rider is just a ton of fun to begin with, I think. And Slash and Saikou were definitely my favorites from Saber with how off-the-wall they were compared to the others in Saber.

I feel like saying that "the reaction to them is like most of audience hasn't seen seen anything beyond the first ten Riders" is a little condescending? Like people always gush about the suits and seasons they love (which might come off as an overstatement for some). Also, I don't really think it's fair trying to rank each season's uniqueness, either. Like Den-O's uniqueness isn't really comparable to Gavv's. Each one does something different, even if there're common tropes (which is a symptom of a long-running franchise than it is of the writers, really).

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

I'll admit that I forgot to specify in Reiwa, because maybe I should've. That's on me, and I'll own that. But I also think the fact that I only mentioned the two Reiwa Riders with grasshopper themes is enough of a clue that I'm talking about Reiwa Riders exclusively.

Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't mean, or exaggerate what I say.

Not my intention to offend. I kind of suck at picking up on subtext unless I'm critically looking for it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

Honestly I'd put responsibility onto Takebe, too. Takanashi had planned on writing Keiwa's antagonist arc earlier on, and Sara was supposed to die earlier, too, but she kept having him push the death further and further back so that Sara could keep being a beacon of light in Geats for as long as possible.

So I can get why Takanashi was beginning to be impatient with Keiwa and Sara's arc in the 30s, with Takebe telling him to push Sara's death further and further back. Neither are wrong, but neither are right.

I suppose it could be a matter of perspective. Often when the producer goes against the writer's desire, it's criticized as executive meddling. But people also generally agree that Inoue's shows would suck if he had carte blanche. Revice would've been even worse, based on some of Kinoshita's ideas that got vetoed! Fitting for Geats, Takebe and Takahashi each had their own vision for how the show should proceed and the audience will have their own opinions of which vision is better. Personally, I think the brighter the beacon of hope shines, the darker the despair will be from the loss, so Takebe's argument makes sense to me.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

Most of the time I think it's more like people being happy that we finally have a change in pace after having, again, 5 seasons of animal-themed (partially or completely) Riders.

But this is literally the same reason why people are unhappy with Takahashi's choice. And the reason why the animal motif continues to be used is the same reason why you are happy with him as a scriptwriter: proven results and variety (if only because there are almost 7,000 different species of grasshoppers alone ). To paraphrase myself in the Gozyuger theme: cars and watches are niche tastes, but animals are loved by almost everyone. So here the question is mostly who emphasizes what: uniqueness or typicality. Each show did something unique and each followed some tropes.
That's why I find the tendency to oversimplify or, rather, categorically classify shows into one camp or another strange. The same thing is observed with the division into scientific and mystical riders, although in the shows themselves it is often difficult to draw such a line; and into dark and light shows, which, by and large, is completely delirious. And now the idea that Faiz is a fun show sounds like sacrilege. Although Faiz is a fun show. I mean, I have a feeling that many people, even if they don't think in binary, at least express their thoughts in that way. So I guess I want the nuances not to be ignored and to get the attention they deserve.
Something like that. I hope I conveyed my thoughts clearly enough.

Quote:

I feel like saying that "the reaction to them is like most of audience hasn't seen seen anything beyond the first ten Riders" is a little condescending?

You feel wrong, because it's actually a compliment. Not everyone watched the first ten riders.

[MKDremare]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Not my intention to offend. I kind of suck at picking up on subtext unless I'm critically looking for it. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Apology accepted. I just genuinely do not like it when people misread or exaggerate the words I say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I suppose it could be a matter of perspective. Often when the producer goes against the writer's desire, it's criticized as executive meddling. But people also generally agree that Inoue's shows would suck if he had carte blanche. Revice would've been even worse, based on some of Kinoshita's ideas that got vetoed! Fitting for Geats, Takebe and Takahashi each had their own vision for how the show should proceed and the audience will have their own opinions of which vision is better. Personally, I think the brighter the beacon of hope shines, the darker the despair will be from the loss, so Takebe's argument makes sense to me.

Fair enough. It's always a balance of what producers and writers want to do. Always have to make compromises in creating stories. Though I think most people would say that Takanashi's idea makes more sense, considering a common criticism is how Keiwa's antagonist arc came too late.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

But this is literally the same reason why people are unhappy with Takahashi's choice.

I mean, I get why people don't want to see Takanashi so soon after having him write for Geats or Outsiders so recently (even if it's been like... 4 years since Geats? Geez, time moved fast). I'm not blind to that fact. I just personally like his writing enough that I'm personally fine with seeing him again. It's really no different from wanting other writers to come back and work on a season to me.

What I said and meant was that some people are now treating Takanashi like how Inoue was in the past; a recurring writer who's becoming more divisive due to the common tropes they use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

That's why I find the tendency to oversimplify or, rather, categorically classify shows into one camp or another strange. The same thing is observed with the division into scientific and mystical riders, although in the shows themselves it is often difficult to draw such a line; and into dark and light shows, which, by and large, is completely delirious. And now the idea that Faiz is a fun show sounds like sacrilege. Although Faiz is a fun show. I mean, I have a feeling that many people, even if they don't think in binary, at least express their thoughts in that way. So I guess I want the nuances not to be ignored and to get the attention they deserve.
Something like that. I hope I conveyed my thoughts clearly enough.

I really don't care if it's "oversimplifying" to divide Rider seasons into motifs and themes based on the apparent outset. All they are are just quick and easy categories to refer to. Of course seasons get more complicated when you get down into them, because no season is truly or fully alike. And I know that even in non-animal themed seasons there's at least one or two hints of them having some animal influence. I'm perfectly fine if there were subtle animal motifs in Riders. I just want to see more Riders where the animal theme isn't the most obvious influence.

I feel like that's what people are missing from what I'm saying whenever I try to clarify it. Like constantly. I have flatout said before that "I want there to be more main Riders that have obvious unique themes that aren't obviously animal themed, but if they do, that it's subtle instead". Hell, I can even literally just say "While I do love [insert season with obvious animal theme, like Gotchard or Geats], I just wish there were more unique themes instead of overt animal themes," and people would respond with "Actually animals have always been a major motif in Kamen Rider" or the like, as if I didn't know. It a little insulting that people seem to miss the point I'm making or focus on the wrong part. And it's exhausting for me having to reiterate this point so often.

Like with Riders with confirmed animal motifs, there's always at least something that catches your eye more than the animal motif. For example, with Double, I don't just think "grasshopper", I think more about how he's half-and-half with a giant W on his head (instead of having grasshopper antenna). Compare that to 01, where I just go "Yea, he's a grasshopper alright".

At this point, I feel like I said enough about what I hope and wish to see more of, so I think I'm just gonna drop this topic altogether now. No point in dragging it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

And the reason why the animal motif continues to be used is the same reason why you are happy with him as a scriptwriter: proven results and variety (if only because there are almost 7,000 different species of grasshoppers alone ). To paraphrase myself in the Gozyuger theme: cars and watches are niche tastes, but animals are loved by almost everyone. So here the question is mostly who emphasizes what: uniqueness or typicality. Each show did something unique and each followed some tropes.

Also, I really don't get calling cars a niche taste. Like watches I get, but cars? Kids have always loved cars. Hell, why else would Pixar's Cars be so popular for so long? I don't think that example is as good as you think it is.

[Frontier]

Personally I would appreciate it if the writing is more or less as consistent as Geats'. But maybe with a better main villain.

[FairyKing]

Regardless of writer and motif, I hope the rumor about form changes being on the simpler side is true, since I tend to prefer simple changes for the normal forms with more in-depth changes being reserved for super and final forms

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

Also, I really don't get calling cars a niche taste. Like watches I get, but cars? Kids have always loved cars. Hell, why else would Pixar's Cars be so popular for so long? I don't think that example is as good as you think it is.

Well, not children, but boys. And even there there are some specifics. As I heard from one blogger: "As a child, I always played with soldiers, not cars, because I wanted to be a general, not a taxi driver." Add to this such factors as poverty or the fact that there are many more victims of car accidents than from bears and sharks. Plus, the cultural subtext. So by making the car the main theme you still risk alienating part of the audience. Returning to the riders, even on this site DreamSword considers Drive a fake Kamen Rider.