[Locke]

@DreadBringer - I would agree with your points about the Stomach Family if they decided to have a different type of villain, but choosing to have them so personally connected to the core cast, and then having them exist on an island for the entire show is just weird to me personally.

Like there are dozens upon dozens of examples through Toku of villain types that can function just fine as being largely in the background for huge chunks of the show, but the Stomach Family are not one of them. At least to me. They needed to be more present in the show, we needed to see more of them functioning as a unit.

I didn't know though about the changes behind the scenes though in terms of who were in charge of different sections of the show, that stuff is really fascinating to me and appreciate you sharing it. Knowing that now, you are right that you can see clear lines as different creative leads steer various episodes.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

@DreadBringer - I would agree with your points about the Stomach Family if they decided to have a different type of villain, but choosing to have them so personally connected to the core cast, and then having them exist on an island for the entire show is just weird to me personally.

In fact, in my review of the show, I wrote that this is precisely why Philip, Koyomi, and Banjou Ryuga's connection to the show's villains isn't revealed until closer to the finale. At least, that's one of the reasons. Perhaps if Shouma was presented in the beginning as a Stomatch experiment rather than a relative, the siblings' passivity would have been more relatable. Yes, viewers likely guessed his connection to the villains early on anyway, but the show was in no rush to reveal Shouma and Masaru's obvious connection.

[Enchilada645]

I'll just be succinct and say that I pretty much agree with @Locke's points on the Stomach Family. While I think they're certainly memorable, their detachment from the story and Shoma despite what the narrative says, hurts them more than helps them.

That said, I will say, it is a bit funny to see people referencing directors changing as some big behind the scenes thing... when like, that's basically been how it is? There's a main director, but there's still a ton of guest ones brought on, especially when it comes to there being multiple writers to factor in as well. Which is why I think it's kind of disingenuous to prop it up as this big thing that happened. Like "left the production" feels like you're putting way more weight on it than there needs to be. It was just his last scheduled episodes, clearly.

[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

In fact, in my review of the show, I wrote that this is precisely why Philip, Koyomi, and Banjou Ryuga's connection to the show's villains isn't revealed until closer to the finale. At least, that's one of the reasons. Perhaps if Shouma was presented in the beginning as a Stomatch experiment rather than a relative, the siblings' passivity would have been more relatable. Yes, viewers likely guessed his connection to the villains early on anyway, but the show was in no rush to reveal Shouma and Masaru's obvious connection.

Yeah cause he does try to hide it early on, but then when the cat is out of the bag it is just kinda out there forever. If they were going to have the villains in the shadows they probably could have protected this reveal for longer. Especially as Shouma just straight up murders any Stomach who doesn't yield, too. It could have disguised his real connection to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enchilada645

That said, I will say, it is a bit funny to see people referencing directors changing as some big behind the scenes thing... when like, that's basically been how it is? There's a main director, but there's still a ton of guest ones brought on, especially when it comes to there being multiple writers to factor in as well. Which is why I think it's kind of disingenuous to prop it up as this big thing that happened. Like "left the production" feels like you're putting way more weight on it than there needs to be. It was just his last scheduled episodes, clearly.

That is good to know too, I know almost nothing about how these shows get made, but I guess it does make sense if this is a common practice of why I often find in toku shows I really like clusters of episodes and then other stretches I like less, I guess it is like during a comic run when they switch artists or whatever.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

That is good to know too, I know almost nothing about how these shows get made, but I guess it does make sense if this is a common practice of why I often find in toku shows I really like clusters of episodes and then other stretches I like less, I guess it is like during a comic run when they switch artists or whatever.

The same applies not only to directors but also to screenwriters. The funniest case I remember is Saber, where the main screenwriter is Takuro Fukuda, but Keiichi Hasegawa is the author for most of the episodes. So the similarities with comics are truly significant, since new teams are working with ideas that were sometimes conceived before they were even born.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

You said focusing on Granute society.. of which I felt that the show didn't do that enough and I wished the show would do more in exploring the Granute World. Maybe like, the cast traveling there and maybe staying there for direct attacks or to learn more about Granute society or Stomach Inc. Maybe having the 2 parters done like the in the first half, but involving everyday Granutes instead of humans. After all, the Granute World shouldn't be exceptionally more dangerous than human world, as humans and Granutes are meant to be similarly sentient species (albeit Lango claims the Granute World runs on might makes right). The difference of the first half might be about some of the Granutes being hooked to human stuff and, perhaps having some systemic change, or such, to weaken the villains' influence (ruling their world), putting Hapipare in direct opposition to Stomach Inc as 'companies' that make people 'happy'. This applies to most Kamen Rider, but turns out it's just beat the big bad and everything is solved again by killing Bocca and Lango.

I'd have no problem with the show focusing on Granute society if it actually delved deeper like you suggest. All we get to explain the Stomachs' prejudice towards humans including their own brother is the might makes right line from Lango, the hypocrite who couldn't beat Bocca without relying on Gavv's strength. And Jeep, whose arc had the strongest connection to Shouma's, ended up getting finished by Valen without Shouma even being present. I think the Granute society could've been better, if only Komura had prioritized that more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

The same applies not only to directors but also to screenwriters. The funniest case I remember is Saber, where the main screenwriter is Takuro Fukuda, but Keiichi Hasegawa is the author for most of the episodes. So the similarities with comics are truly significant, since new teams are working with ideas that were sometimes conceived before they were even born.

I'll add that Fukuda gets a lot of misdirected hate for his absentness, as Producer Takahashi is the one who told him to focus on movies. Arguably it was a good decision, as while Ghost and Saber are unpopular, many people love Specter Rebirth and Trio of Deep Sin.

[Fish Sandwich]

Guys, we have to be rational about this -- any problems with the story of Gavv are *clearly* a result of them using the budget to make Amazons instead.

Anyway, I could throw my own two cents about Gavv in the ring, but since this has come up, I'd just like to give a VERY basic outline of how the creative process behind these shows works, as I understand it?

Basically, for any given Kamen Rider show, going back at least all the way to Kuuga (and most of this info is also true for Super Sentai), there's a trio of people who we would probably consider something along the lines of "showrunners", who have a larger direct influence on the series than most other people involved.

- the chief producer (for Gavv, that's Naomi Takebe)
- the main writer (for Gavv, Junko Koumura)
- the pilot director (for Gavv, Teruaki Sugihara)

With the occasional exception, pairs of episodes in Rider are treated as single "blocks" on a production level. A director and a writer are appointed to handle each one, and the actual physical scripts even contain both episodes. (This is likely the biggest factor in the prevalence of two-part stories across the franchise.) Most shows generally have a "rotation" of a few directors who more-or-less take turns in the same order. Main writers are generally able to handle writing many more scripts than any one director will handle, to the point you'll occasionally see shows like Faiz or Ex-Aid where someone like Toshiki Inoue or Yuuya Takahashi will literally write the entire thing.

The chief producer then, as the one of that trio who has the least active involvement in the making of the specific individual episodes, is the one who focuses the most on overseeing the series as a whole, deciding a lot that's very important on the broader scale while generally being less visible in any singular element. Part of that job is having lots of meetings with the staff, and the main writer and pilot director are the people who naturally get brought in earlier than most to start shaping the production. But of course, once other directors and writers come onboard, they're also involved in those discussions too, since they're going to be working on their own episodes.

I can't speak to exactly how flexible the hierarchy of those meetings is, in terms of how much "guest" writers and directors are able to influence the overall story of a series. It likely depends on the specific production, but most of what I've ever read suggests everyone gets their say while still ultimately deferring to that core trio. (Or, god help you, to the executives even higher up, but that's a different discussion entirely.) The key thing to note is while episodic stories will absolutely be colored by those individual voices, it's highly unlikely a situation ever happens where a "guest" writer will make a decision for the overarching plot against the wishes or intent of the main writer, because they're supposed to be agreeing on those things before they even start writing. (In the specific case of Gavv, Koumura is even explicitly credited with supervision on every episode she didn't write, which is pretty uncommon for Rider.)

Similarly, even though the pilot director can only directly handle so many episodes in a year, their influence actually does extend well beyond even simply establishing the overall blueprint with those first few episodes. I recall reading around the time of Rakia's proper introduction in Gavv that they have a direct hand in deciding stuff like the casting and wardrobe for new recurring characters, and the design of new recurring sets, even when they don't debut in episodes helmed by them. Likewise, they also generally handle the visuals in the opening, even when new shots are first used in episodes they don't direct.

If anyone who's even more deep into this stuff than me has anything to correct me on, or even just thinks I could've worded something better, by all means, tell me where I went wrong, but as I've come to understand it after years and years of caring ~probably~ a bit more than the average Rider fan, this is the way these things go, and I'd hope people keep the facts in mind whenever they're trying to delineate blame/credit for the perceived failures/successes of a given Rider series.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

All we get to explain the Stomachs' prejudice towards humans including their own brother is the might makes right line from Lango, the hypocrite who couldn't beat Bocca without relying on Gavv's strength.

Lango also killed his father, not in a duel, but in a rather cowardly manner. Incidentally, given his hypocrisy, he's perhaps the only sibling I don't consider traumatized by his elders. Simply because he tends to blame others for his failures, so even if Bushe had been an ideal father, he wouldn't have been spared from poison, in my opinion.

Quote:

I'll add that Fukuda gets a lot of misdirected hate for his absentness, as Producer Takahashi is the one who told him to focus on movies. Arguably it was a good decision, as while Ghost and Saber are unpopular, many people love Specter Rebirth and Trio of Deep Sin.

Yes, I also think that's an unfair accusation. And not just because I like the show and Hasegawa's style. Fukuda could have easily written the overall outline of the show, identifying the elements that can't be changed, and entrusted the rest to additional writers. At the very least, it gives more opportunities for new talent to shine, which is very beneficial for a long-running franchise.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Yeah cause he does try to hide it early on, but then when the cat is out of the bag it is just kinda out there forever. If they were going to have the villains in the shadows they probably could have protected this reveal for longer. Especially as Shouma just straight up murders any Stomach who doesn't yield, too. It could have disguised his real connection to them.

I guess the real tension (which I felt too when watching Gavv), was when will other people like Hanto know Shoma's real identity as someone related to Stomach, and what will happen when he does. Dente even hints something might not be good if Hanto, with his hatred of Granutes, know Shoma's real identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I'd have no problem with the show focusing on Granute society if it actually delved deeper like you suggest. All we get to explain the Stomachs' prejudice towards humans including their own brother is the might makes right line from Lango, the hypocrite who couldn't beat Bocca without relying on Gavv's strength. And Jeep, whose arc had the strongest connection to Shouma's, ended up getting finished by Valen without Shouma even being present. I think the Granute society could've been better, if only Komura had prioritized that more.

I feel that, as ep. 38 shows, as Jeebh already denied the chance against Shoma in ep. 14, Shoma should have no words anymore to say to Jeebh and he'd only be about killing him. Jeebh shouldn't be different to the part-timers, which all Shoma gave a chance but denied it, resulting in their detonation. I wonder what'd those people think that Shoma does talk to the more despicable one in Lango while not giving Jeebh (the one seen as more sympathetic only because he's younger) any of his time later. Also, though people wouldn't say Stomachs are the strong suit of Gavv, they'd just blame Bouche and think the Stomachs are evil because of trauma suffered from his neglect, of which claiming it's about prejudice is underselling Gavv as a series, and that the real 'deep' theme and point is about cycle of trauma and abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I can't speak to exactly how flexible the hierarchy of those meetings is, in terms of how much "guest" writers and directors are able to influence the overall story of a series. It likely depends on the specific production, but most of what I've ever read suggests everyone gets their say while still ultimately deferring to that core trio. (Or, god help you, to the executives even higher up, but that's a different discussion entirely.) The key thing to note is while episodic stories will absolutely be colored by those individual voices, it's highly unlikely a situation ever happens where a "guest" writer will make a decision for the overarching plot against the wishes or intent of the main writer, because they're supposed to be agreeing on those things before they even start writing. (In the specific case of Gavv, Koumura is even explicitly credited with supervision on every episode she didn't write, which is pretty uncommon for Rider.)

Though you'd make defense on most things, I guess yeah, guest writers may make inconsistent path or traits compared to the established stuff, like, while you defended this, but something like Riku Sanjo's characterization of Yuki Jojima compared to Kazuki Nakashima's writing of her. Or, albeit this is alternate continuity, Toshiki Inoue changing the nature of the wish in Ryuki for Episode Final compared to in the main series. Or perhaps, decisions like Tendou killing Tsurugi in Kabuto ep. 46 which may not sit well. Though yeah, dunno if the decisions that may drift is something that can feel against the wishes or intent of the main writer, but agreed upon or not being seen as that much detrimental.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Though yeah, dunno if the decisions that may drift is something that can feel against the wishes or intent of the main writer, but agreed upon or not being seen as that much detrimental.

Speaking of which, we can recall the Blade/Hibiki/Kabuto trio, where the team working on it changed (more or less) halfway through the show. I think in these cases, the original plan, if not completely abandoned, was at least significantly altered.