[Layton13]

Zeztz continues to fire on all cylinders, pushing established pieces into very fresh, new directions that wouldn't have been possible if not for the twist.

I agree that Dawn seems to be a character that represents the second half, but I think that is great.

He is the underlying darkness of CODE brought to the forefront once the dream has been fully washed away. He's the ugly reality crashing into the dream and he is delightful.

That said, while he seems one-note, I honestly doubt it will stay that way for the rest of the show. There is nothing to fully get that from, but let's just call it a hunch based on how Rider is usually structured. Especially since Takahashi is really good at building characters that seem to be one-note into far more multilayered characters like Genm, Thouser, and Glare.

And even if he is, Dawn is already forcing other characters to reveal more sides to themself, so he's already justified his presence for me.

[Mesnick]

Well, this is a very interesting episode. Lots of inventive action and no fewer revelations. Baku has abandoned the name Seven and is doing everything he can, but Dawn remains unfazed. And the bad dream may not be a never-ending, but it's clearly dragging on.
NOX becomes an ally to Baku and Nem, albeit reluctantly, since Dawn is wreaking havoc in his dream. Interestingly, NOX seems to be the best at manipulating dream space, since even Dawn can't catch him. Another significant detail: NOX seems to genuinely support Lady. Overall, NOX is quite likeable in this episode, but it ends with him being imprisoned in the nightmarish Dawn prison.
As for Dawn, we learn that he was CODE Number One. Moreover, he's a former criminal who was experimented on, ultimately granting him immense power. This leads to another revelation: all who use the power of Nightmares eventually go mad. This is very evident from Dawn, Lady, and Three's strange behavior. Overall, it turns out that out of the seven CODE agents, four have rebelled. It seems clear that CODE has made a mistake somewhere.
Speaking of CODE itself, Zero prefers to play the smart monkey, but Three is eager to fight and decides to use Five. And judging by his words, this power-up will cost the big guy a lot.
Also worth noting is the heartfelt conversation between Baku and Minami. It's clearly a setup for something. Incidentally, the announcement promises that the writers decided to poke fun at the common theory by making Minami a cat agent. Well, given the recent events in her life, this is an entirely predictable dream. The question is, will Baku be able to protect his sister, since Dawn seems invincible. Even Catastrom was no help against him. But maybe Lady can do something? It wasn't for nothing that they started out together.
I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the continnue.

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Let it be known that I hate Dawn.

Like, actively.

Easily my most hated Kamen Rider character in a long time.

And I highly, highly doubt that's going to change throughout the rest of this show.

To me, he's just Ouja in overdrive mode. Which will soon be resolved. The only question is who will beat him: Zeztz or a Somnia-enhanced Five?

[Mesnick]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

I agree that Dawn seems to be a character that represents the second half, but I think that is great.

He is the underlying darkness of CODE brought to the forefront once the dream has been fully washed away. He's the ugly reality crashing into the dream and he is delightful.

That said, while he seems one-note, I honestly doubt it will stay that way for the rest of the show. There is nothing to fully get that from, but let's just call it a hunch based on how Rider is usually structured. Especially since Takahashi is really good at building characters that seem to be one-note into far more multilayered characters like Genm, Thouser, and Glare.

The problem here is that even before his involvement with CODE, Dawn was a psychopath, sentenced to 1,000 years. And I highly doubt it was for corruption. So unless it turns out CODE framed him to exploit his unique abilities, it's pretty hard to expect any kind of unique revelation.

Quote:

And even if he is, Dawn is already forcing other characters to reveal more sides to themself, so he's already justified his presence for me.

I agree. And the pace of the show itself has noticeably sped up.

[Layton13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

The problem here is that even before his involvement with CODE, Dawn was a psychopath, sentenced to 1,000 years. And I highly doubt it was for corruption. So unless it turns out CODE framed him to exploit his unique abilities, it's pretty hard to expect any kind of unique revelation.

Like I said, this is mostly based on vibes and how plot structure, especially in Takahashi shows, go.

Them dropping the 1000 years bit so early and without much fanfare kinda points at them doing a bit more with this and if they will invest into expanding that some more, they will definitely add to it in some way. I personaly just get the vibe that it will be a twist and not just driving home how awful Sieg is.

In general, the truly evil characters without basically any redeeming qualities usually show up close to the end of his shows, at most in the last 3rd. Aka, Cronos, Ark or Suel. All other antagonists are humanized in some way shape or form.

My current prediction on the little bit of info we got about him in these two episodes and a lot of just vibes:

He's not exactly framed by CODE, but he was part of some sort of dream experiment, perhaps one of the inciting incidents of the show to be narratively efficent, where a large number of people died. He was used as the scapegoat so CODE could pressure him into further experiments because he seems to be at least similar to Baku with the fact his main Capsem seems to work similarly to Baku's Catastrom.

His inclusion as Agent 1 feels very strange, and the fact that Zero completely ignores Agent 2's objections does indicate he is there for a reason.

I assume the original experiment emotionally broke him, letting him embrace the nightmare to hide within it and so his current personality was formed. One thing that could work for that is the fact he spins the Capsem the wrong way, so instead of breaking out of the ground, it retreats into it, aka, he's retreating into himself. Could work as a turning point for the character when he confronts that part of himself and uses it the right way round so the dragon can finally break out of his shell.

But like I said, that is all mostly vibes and guesses based on how stuff like this often goes.

[Sh Ranger]

Missed opportunity to call this episode Back, as the previous one was Play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I love Nem leaning into the "Tough Girl" act for this persona.

Nem is even cute when she tries to be intimidating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

I missed 7 being smooth with Nem. Though he's really not 7 anymore...so now he's Zeztz! And he even makes fun of how Odaka had to be so Chuuni in coming up with the "NOX" codename.

Agent Zeztz, huh. Now that I think about it, Zero mentioned how the Zeztz Room manifested from Baku's subconscious, so I guess that name was something Zero appropriated on his behalf, like how Lady made the Nox Driver after Odaka became Nox or how Sento got the name Build from Katsuragi. So when Baku dreamed of being "Seven", he really dreamed of being Zeztz. Anyway, I enjoyed how Se- uh, Zeztz and Nem brought out the comedic side of Nox here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

A lot here had me grinning as I was watching it, between Capsems being spun with bullets instead of hands, and finishing moves so over the top they blow up moons.

Dawn henshining with an incoming bullet reminds me of Zi-O henshining with Geiz's kick. It's risky and impractical, but damn, it's cool when it works! Helps that lucid dreaming actually makes stuff like this more plausible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Overall, it turns out that out of the seven CODE agents, four have rebelled. It seems clear that CODE has made a mistake somewhere.
Speaking of CODE itself, Zero prefers to play the smart monkey, but Three is eager to fight and decides to use Five. And judging by his words, this power-up will cost the big guy a lot.

Three may betray Zero as well, if he decides that Zero's sentimentality towards Baku is too much of a liability. That scene from the OP strongly implies it. While Zero has been known for his ruthlessness, he understands at least that agents have feelings and how handling those feelings indelicately will lead to insubordination. Three demands absolute loyalty to CODE without doubt, which seems foolish to expect of those who are recruited for their lucid dreaming ability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

The only question is who will beat him: Zeztz or a Somnia-enhanced Five?

Zeztz, with an Over Banish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

Them dropping the 1000 years bit so early and without much fanfare kinda points at them doing a bit more with this and if they will invest into expanding that some more, they will definitely add to it in some way. I personaly just get the vibe that it will be a twist and not just driving home how awful Sieg is.

In general, the truly evil characters without basically any redeeming qualities usually show up close to the end of his shows, at most in the last 3rd. Aka, Cronos, Ark or Suel. All other antagonists are humanized in some way shape or form.

Yeah, Dawn is the Tertiary Rider after all, if they start as a villain then they have to end as an antivillain at minimum. Whether he was merely covering for a loved one who committed the crime, it was a tragic accident, or he's clinically insane and thinks everybody should enjoy nightmares, I'm sure there will be something more to Sieg than the surface level appearance of the stereotypical evil psychopath.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

Does Baku even remember where his comatose body is supposed to be from the dream?

Worst case scenario, he can always remind himself by using Projection to watch his ZEZTZ Blu-rays again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Let it be known that I hate Dawn.

Like, actively.

Easily my most hated Kamen Rider character in a long time.

And I highly, highly doubt that's going to change throughout the rest of this show.

At the risk of sounding like the character you hate, you could at least try and have some fun with your bad dream. Make a crack about how Sledge's monster prison in Dino Charge was *way* cooler, or something, you know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

I find him to be a stock, one-note, cliche psychopath villain that I've seen about 100 times across various other shows

Kind of the flipside of what I was saying last week about assuming he's the best thing ever to happen to this show, but I'd wait a little more than two episodes to make that judgment myself! I can definitely see how it would run the risk of becoming a tired gimmick if he's still just doing some wannabe Joker shtick 20 episodes from now, but the signs aren't really pointing to that yet?

"To be burdened with sin even before birth... That's one unfair bad dream."

"Don't falter. Don't suffer. Enjoy the bad dream. That's how you change the whole world."

That scene right before the opening here was personally the most interesting I've found Sieg so far, because it definitely seems like it's in the episode specifically to speak to as-of-yet untold deeper facets of the guy?

When he talks about Nem's circumstances, it kinda sounds like he's also speaking about his own -- like his interest in Nem, much like his interest in ZEZTZ, is a sort of twisted kinship he feels with his fellow children of bad dreams. Which could itself suggest someone who, consciously or otherwise, wants to feel a sense of connection to somebody, or to just feel understood by them. A very Rider-esque loneliness or some other such thing that would add at least another note to his personality.

When he gives that little spiel right after, combined with that flashback, it sounds like a sort of mantra that was either beaten into him by CODE, something he started telling himself to make sense of his life, or some combination of the two, all of which speak to a past there's still a lot to learn about. Talking about changing the world also suggests some sort of desire beyond simply taking pleasure in the suffering of others for its own sake, which, again, would be at least one more note.

I'm pretty sympathetic towards your overall position here, but I don't know, even if I'm wrong in my specific readings here (as I often seem to be with this show!), it definitely seems like the show wants to move him into being a more rounded character eventually. After all, there turned out to be way more to NOX than just his poetry skills, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

NOX seems to be the best at manipulating dream space, since even Dawn can't catch him.

And yet Five could! I guess CODE's guard dog really knows how to sniff a guy out!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Missed opportunity to call this episode Back, as the previous one was Play.

This reminds me: has it actually been clear to everyone that all the episodes titles are specifically verbs? Some of the English translations they choose make that less obvious, which I'd maybe be more bothered by if I knew *why* the episode titles were all verbs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Agent Zeztz, huh. Now that I think about it, Zero mentioned how the Zeztz Room manifested from Baku's subconscious, so I guess that name was something Zero appropriated on his behalf

Either that, or the name and the room were things they subliminally programmed into Baku's mind the same way they did everything else. I think this is going to be relevant to Sieg, too, but there's been strong implications CODE has been manipulating some of these people for a very long time as part of their plans.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

At the risk of sounding like the character you hate, you could at least try and have some fun with your bad dream. Make a crack about how Sledge's monster prison in Dino Charge was *way* cooler, or something, you know?

I probably would be having fun with it if not for Dawn himself. Like, the episode opens with a Mad Max-esque dream, which in itself is a fun idea, but right as it seems like that's the focus of the episode, who comes in, yucking it up to steal the spotlight?

You have no idea how badly I rolled my eyes. Combine that with him no selling forms of Zeztz that had such significant character moments tied to them and I just couldn't get into this one at all. And before anyone says anything, yes, I know Zeztz is hardly the first show guilty of this.

When he actively mocked the power of Catastrom, that's when, atleast it me, it was the nail in the coffin that the show from here on out does not give the slightest crap about what was established before. As if the premonition twist and the new OP weren't big enough indicators. I would be absolutely ecstatic to be proven wrong though.

My biggest fear right now is that Zeztz becomes the next Faiz for me: A show that I was really liking, only for a specific part to hit which completely turns all that good will around. And at the rate these past few episodes have been going, it's feeling more and more like the best I can hope for is that this show pulls a Blade and the ending totally saves it for me.

But to be clear, I'm speaking solely for myself here. If you guys are having fun with Dawn and Zeztz becoming much more standard anime fare, then that's great. I'm glad the show managed to gain a much wider appeal even if that meant tossing my emotional attachment into the trash.

[Layton13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

When he actively mocked the power of Catastrom, that's when, atleast it me, it was the nail in the coffin that the show from here on out does not give the slightest crap about what was established before. As if the premonition twist and the new OP weren't big enough indicators. I would be absolutely ecstatic to be proven wrong though.

It sounds more like you are searching for reasons to justify your feelings for the shift of the show. Those feelings are totally valid, but that is at least how it sounds to me.

Because Dawn mocking Catastrom here actually feels like everything before still matters, because that is not a dig against the form itself, it's a dig at Baku's hypocrisy in his mind. He claims all this heroic stuff, but Dawn knows where he got Catastrom, both because he saw that and because he seems to have gotten his powers the same way.

He is mocking that Baku was on a path to become just like him, not the form itself.

It feels like it very much cares what happened before; it just frames it in a different way. What came before is still the foundation of the show.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

It sounds more like you are searching for reasons to justify your feelings for the shift of the show. Those feelings are totally valid, but that is at least how it sounds to me.

I don't have to search for that. The show gives them to me right upfront.

That said, no. I'm mainly trying to focus on Dawn here. But as I noted, he's currently serving as a symbol of this second half, and I'm not the only one who feels as such, as seen in this very thread.

Quote:

Because Dawn mocking Catastrom here actually feels like everything before still matters, because that is not a dig against the form itself, it's a dig at Baku's hypocrisy in his mind. He claims all this heroic stuff, but Dawn knows where he got Catastrom, both because he saw that and because he seems to have gotten his powers the same way.

He is mocking that Baku was on a path to become just like him, not the form itself.

It feels like it very much cares what happened before; it just frames it in a different way. What came before is still the foundation of the show.

I personally have no idea how you get all of that out of the line "The power of ruin... is that the best it can do?" But hey, if it speaks to you, great.