Kamen Rider General Questions

SPLIT LIP · 09-03-2015, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanoBaron

I'm sorry Shouichi wasn't given the power to know when unkown were about to attack.

No, but he was given the power to say "holy shit, I just turned into a demiGod and killed a murdering monster speaking in tounges. What could this all mean?"

And you know what? He should've been given the power to know when they were about to attack, given that he still ahd the miraculous power to know when they had. That's some selective sixth sense.

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I guess I was too busy watching him break down in fear because a monster from his past returned and it took Mana reminding him what he was fighting for to bring him out of it.

Oh, I remember that. I remember how totally out-of-place it felt considering there was never any indication prior that implied he was ever fighting for anything. Again, I initially thought he was subconciously transforming and that they're be a big dramatic moment where he found out, but nope, he just for some reason never mentioned it.

Again, it's a basic human response to at least go "WTF" when that happens. It would've been great if he'd had some sort of mini crisis, but fearing he'd bring undue harm towards his friends, he secretly begins investigating his past and the people being targetted like the G3 people were trying to do. this would've been a cool way to show a parallel between those who aren't Agito trying to understand him when he doesn't even know it hismelf, and them both coming together to find the same answers.

But nope, just week after week of tomatoes and lame fights.

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and that time he saved a pregnant woman from being killed, y'know, preventing TWO deaths,

That's two out of, what, fifty?

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and everytime he could actually get to the monster attack in time, cuz y'know, he doesn't have the ability to teleport.

Again, he literally has a sixth sense, it just never senses Unknown before they've killed anyone.

You're arguing like it's some unreasonable expectation for him to have a supernatural ability to know when Unknown appear, but he does. It's just uselessly delayed purely so that the show can have civilian deaths before the monster's killed. Bottom line, he's an ineffectual hero. He's not even a hero.

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I mean, Godai obviously must also be an asshole because so many people died before he could kill a monster, the lazy piece of shit.

I actually really don't like Kuuga either, but I've seen far less of it than Agito.

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Shouichi literally is rushing his ass off to try and hopefully save the current person from dying or at least save other people from being killed too.

Again, he has ESP. It's just conveniently delayed. And it's not like there's not just gonna be another Unknown to kill more people next week.

But honestly? His inability to actually save people isn't really something I can blame on the character. The writers are to blame. But character-wise I can blame his total and iredeemable apathy. He never once shows remourse or regret for the innocents lost, or even acknowledge or show contempt for the afomentioned useless ESP. The show desperately needed a scene of him contemplating why he has this power if he can never save anyone in time. That would've been character developement.

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I never implied that the would-be Agito's weren't innocent. I was referring to the fact of normal humans being attacked that weren't technically plot relevant. the fact is that the ones with the seed of Agito were targets, and the show revealed why they were being targeted.

So did the unknown have to mutilate them when they killed them? No, that was done to be "dark and gritty." But it was stupid.

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and there's no way you could have Shouichi really acknowledge it without having it come off as him patting himself on the back about it and being conceited.

How?

Because, like, a shitload of Kamen Riders have acknowledged their powers and didn't come across as conceited. And you know what? Being conceited and grwoign out of it would make him more fo a charatcer than he was. Again, compared to Gaim, Kouta was using his power for mundane things at first and then realised, pardon the cliche, that great power comes with great responsibility.

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and I dunno, Gills' shouting was fine. he was supposed to be a savage character, and his yelling showed plenty of savagery. like, he and Amazon yelled almost exactly the same.

And they were both annoying. Screaming constantly is annoying, it's what children do to annoy their parents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoseiWonder

Depending on the lens you view it through, but as you said it gets into territory that we can't go in to on this site.

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Originally Posted by SanoBaron

I dunno, I think it should be fine so long as we keep it to the lore which the show gives us. especially considering the deities are very plot important to the show.
as long as we don't go into any actual religious territory, it should be fine.
stick to the mythology that the show gives us.

Well then here's a simple example from the show itself:

The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans?

And that's all I can safely say, but as you can see they're not compatible veiwpoints.

Joebe · 09-03-2015, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

And they were both annoying. Screaming constantly is annoying, it's what children do to annoy their parents.

Ashihara had a tough time in the show, I can forgive him for being angry considering everyone he was close with betrayed him, and then anyone he became close with after that died. (wouldn't be surprised if the puppy bit the dust post-credit as well...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Well then here's a simple example from the show itself:

The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans?

And that's all I can safely say, but as you can see they're not compatible veiwpoints.

"Overlord(s)", that's why. And you're talking about a show in a universe with a real god, monster people, and previously in Kuuga ancient civilizations that made super technology from magic stones from space. Anachronism is often a problem in many toku programs anyway.

SanoBaron · 09-03-2015, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans?

two overlords fought, one was defeated, in that one's dying breath, he gave humanity (the beings the victor created) the potential power to evolve in the future as a final "fuck you' to the other guy.

that's what happened.

ElConvoy · 09-03-2015, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Well then here's a simple example from the show itself:

The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans?

And that's all I can safely say, but as you can see they're not compatible veiwpoints.

It wasnt his choice to give them the power of evolution. There were two Overlords in the show. The overlord of Darkness and the Overlord of Light. They created Humanity together but soon grew distant and waged war against each other. The Overlord of Darkness won and with his last power the Overlord of Light gave humanity the power to evolve past humanity without the Overlord of Darkness knowing of it.

SanoBaron · 09-03-2015, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joebe

Ashihara had a tough time in the show, I can forgive him for being angry considering everyone he was close with betrayed him, and then anyone he became close with after that died. (wouldn't be surprised if the puppy bit the dust post-credit as well...)

no. the puppy lives. it is free from the suffering. I don't care how funny it is to poke fun at Ryo's never ending sadness, the puppy is off limits. >:U

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElConvoy

It wasnt his choice to give them the power of evolution. There were two Overlords in the show. The overlord of Darkness and the Overlord of Light. They created Humanity together but soon grew distant and waged war against each other. The Overlord of Darkness won and with his last power the Overlord of Light planted the Seed of Agito into the humans without the Overlord of Darkness knowing of it.

ACTUALLY, he did tell the overlord of darkness that humanity would eventually would become not his.

SPLIT LIP · 09-03-2015, 07:25 PM

I'll admit, it's been like two or maybe three years since I watched Agito, and I never made it to the very end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanoBaron

two overlords fought, one was defeated, in that one's dying breath, he gave humanity (the beings the victor created) the potential power to evolve in the future as a final "fuck you' to the other guy.

that's what happened.

So... it's not evolution. Evolution is genetic mutation being passed down through generations depending on wether or not said mutation gives the species in question an adavantage in survival.

Evolution happens over millions of years, and has no predictable path. Changing a species is not evolution, it's splicing or augmentation.

Matrixbeast · 09-03-2015, 07:25 PM

Does Kuuga get good?

SanoBaron · 09-03-2015, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

So... it's not evolution. Evolution is genetic mutation being passed down through generations depending on wether or not said mutation gives the species in question an adavantage in survival.

Evolution happens over millions of years, and has no predictable path. Changing a species is not evolution, it's splicing or augmentation.

in this case, no. it is using the dictionary's secondary description for the word. which states: "the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form." in Agito's case, this is done through psychic powers and transformations. being able to even become Agito gives you access to physical and mental powers, IE becoming more complex.

Shouichi's technically the Char of Agito seeds though. his only power is sensing an unknown attack.

SPLIT LIP · 09-03-2015, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanoBaron

in this case, no. it is using the dictionary's secondary description for the word. which states: "the gradual development of something, especially from a simple to a more complex form." in Agito's case, this is done through psychic powers and transformations.

Except it's not that at all. There's nothing gradual about it. They literally just spontainiously gain abilites that manifest over the course of, what, months?

It's not evolution by any deffinition of the word, it's just simple alteration. Evolution, put most basically, is one iteration of a concept unsurped by a superior version. But these people did not give way to superior versions, they were transformed into superior versions.

SanoBaron · 09-03-2015, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Except it's not that at all. There's nothing gradual about it. They literally just spontainiously gain abilites that manifest over the course of, what, months?

It's not evolution by any deffinition of the word, it's just simple alteration.

>not gradual
>over the course of months
one is not mutually exclusive to another.
again, it's not using the scientific term of evolution. it is the conceptual term. https://www.google.com/search?q=evol...sm=93&ie=UTF-8

someone linked to the lore of Agito's tapestry, definitely go look at that to see what it is doing with humanity become Agito.

09-03-2015, 07:13 PM	#1531
SPLIT LIP I'm an agile cat. Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,032	Quote: Originally Posted by SanoBaron I'm sorry Shouichi wasn't given the power to know when unkown were about to attack. No, but he was given the power to say "holy shit, I just turned into a demiGod and killed a murdering monster speaking in tounges. What could this all mean?" And you know what? He should've been given the power to know when they were about to attack, given that he still ahd the miraculous power to know when they had. That's some selective sixth sense. Quote: I guess I was too busy watching him break down in fear because a monster from his past returned and it took Mana reminding him what he was fighting for to bring him out of it. Oh, I remember that. I remember how totally out-of-place it felt considering there was never any indication prior that implied he was ever fighting for anything. Again, I initially thought he was subconciously transforming and that they're be a big dramatic moment where he found out, but nope, he just for some reason never mentioned it. Again, it's a basic human response to at least go "WTF" when that happens. It would've been great if he'd had some sort of mini crisis, but fearing he'd bring undue harm towards his friends, he secretly begins investigating his past and the people being targetted like the G3 people were trying to do. this would've been a cool way to show a parallel between those who aren't Agito trying to understand him when he doesn't even know it hismelf, and them both coming together to find the same answers. But nope, just week after week of tomatoes and lame fights. Quote: and that time he saved a pregnant woman from being killed, y'know, preventing TWO deaths, That's two out of, what, fifty? Quote: and everytime he could actually get to the monster attack in time, cuz y'know, he doesn't have the ability to teleport. Again, he literally has a sixth sense, it just never senses Unknown before they've killed anyone. You're arguing like it's some unreasonable expectation for him to have a supernatural ability to know when Unknown appear, *but he does.* It's just uselessly delayed purely so that the show can have civilian deaths before the monster's killed. Bottom line, he's an ineffectual hero. He's not even a hero. Quote: I mean, Godai obviously must also be an asshole because so many people died before he could kill a monster, the lazy piece of shit. I actually really don't like Kuuga either, but I've seen far less of it than Agito. Quote: Shouichi literally is rushing his ass off to try and hopefully save the current person from dying or at least save other people from being killed too. Again, he has ESP. It's just conveniently delayed. And it's not like there's not just gonna be another Unknown to kill more people next week. But honestly? His inability to actually save people isn't really something I can blame on the character. The writers are to blame. But character-wise I can blame his total and iredeemable apathy. He never once shows remourse or regret for the innocents lost, or even acknowledge or show contempt for the afomentioned useless ESP. The show desperately needed a scene of him contemplating why he has this power if he can never save anyone in time. That would've been character developement. Quote: I never implied that the would-be Agito's weren't innocent. I was referring to the fact of normal humans being attacked that weren't technically plot relevant. the fact is that the ones with the seed of Agito were targets, and the show revealed why they were being targeted. So did the unknown have to mutilate them when they killed them? No, that was done to be "dark and gritty." But it was stupid. Quote: and there's no way you could have Shouichi really acknowledge it without having it come off as him patting himself on the back about it and being conceited. How? Because, like, a shitload of Kamen Riders have acknowledged their powers and didn't come across as conceited. And you know what? Being conceited and grwoign out of it would make him more fo a charatcer than he was. Again, compared to Gaim, Kouta was using his power for mundane things at first and then realised, pardon the cliche, that great power comes with great responsibility. Quote: and I dunno, Gills' shouting was fine. he was supposed to be a savage character, and his yelling showed plenty of savagery. like, he and Amazon yelled almost exactly the same. And they were both annoying. Screaming constantly is annoying, it's what children do to annoy their parents. Quote: Originally Posted by GoseiWonder Depending on the lens you view it through, but as you said it gets into territory that we can't go in to on this site. Quote: Originally Posted by SanoBaron I dunno, I think it should be fine so long as we keep it to the lore which the show gives us. especially considering the deities are very plot important to the show. as long as we don't go into any actual religious territory, it should be fine. stick to the mythology that the show gives us. Well then here's a simple example from the show itself: The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans? And that's all I can safely say, but as you can see they're not compatible veiwpoints. Last edited by SPLIT LIP; 09-03-2015 at 07:22 PM..

09-03-2015, 07:19 PM	#1532
Joebe New Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Canada eh Posts: 30	Quote: Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP And they were both annoying. Screaming constantly is annoying, it's what children do to annoy their parents. Ashihara had a tough time in the show, I can forgive him for being angry considering everyone he was close with betrayed him, and then anyone he became close with after that died. (wouldn't be surprised if the puppy bit the dust post-credit as well...) Quote: Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP Well then here's a simple example from the show itself: The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans? And that's all I can safely say, but as you can see they're not compatible veiwpoints. "Overlord(s)", that's why. And you're talking about a show in a universe with a real god, monster people, and previously in Kuuga ancient civilizations that made super technology from magic stones from space. Anachronism is often a problem in many toku programs anyway. Last edited by Joebe; 09-03-2015 at 07:21 PM..

09-03-2015, 07:21 PM	#1533
SanoBaron Tree Princess Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,420	Quote: Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP The "Overlord" created humans... but they then evolved past his control. How? He created them, he created everything. How did they evolve and he not notice it? Also, he did create humans as they are, or the ancestral primates that would one day evolve into humans? two overlords fought, one was defeated, in that one's dying breath, he gave humanity (the beings the victor created) the potential power to evolve in the future as a final "fuck you' to the other guy. that's what happened. __________________

09-03-2015, 07:24 PM	#1535
SanoBaron Tree Princess Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,420	Quote: Originally Posted by Joebe Ashihara had a tough time in the show, I can forgive him for being angry considering everyone he was close with betrayed him, and then anyone he became close with after that died. (wouldn't be surprised if the puppy bit the dust post-credit as well...) no. the puppy lives. it is free from the suffering. I don't care how funny it is to poke fun at Ryo's never ending sadness, the puppy is off limits. >:U Quote: Originally Posted by ElConvoy It wasnt his choice to give them the power of evolution. There were two Overlords in the show. The overlord of Darkness and the Overlord of Light. They created Humanity together but soon grew distant and waged war against each other. The Overlord of Darkness won and with his last power the Overlord of Light planted the Seed of Agito into the humans without the Overlord of Darkness knowing of it. ACTUALLY, he did tell the overlord of darkness that humanity would eventually would become not his. __________________

09-03-2015, 07:25 PM	#1536
SPLIT LIP I'm an agile cat. Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,032	I'll admit, it's been like two or maybe three years since I watched Agito, and I never made it to the very end. Quote: Originally Posted by SanoBaron two overlords fought, one was defeated, in that one's dying breath, he gave humanity (the beings the victor created) the potential power to evolve in the future as a final "fuck you' to the other guy. that's what happened. So... it's not evolution. Evolution is genetic mutation being passed down through generations depending on wether or not said mutation gives the species in question an adavantage in survival. Evolution happens over millions of years, and has no predictable path. Changing a species is not evolution, it's splicing or augmentation. Last edited by SPLIT LIP; 09-03-2015 at 07:27 PM..