[Layton13]

I don’t wanna say anything about Daiji till his stuff is done, so I’ll instead talk about Hikaru.

Probably my favorite character if you only concern the main runtime of the show.

That said, that’s not because he’s a great character, but simply process of elimination.

His arc is fairly straightforward, hits its major beats, actually says something about family and is the least screwed up.

The character is however severely underutilized and underdeveloped.

Also, Akaishi is a character I to this day don’t get what they were going for with.

Is he an evil ham?

Is he a tortured individual in search of family?

Or someone wanting the best for humanity?

He kinda ends up with traits for all of them without it feeling cohesive. They really should have picked one and ran with it. Pretty sure any of the three would have worked, but this doesn’t.

That said, kinda love the scene with Weekend dad dying before he gets to finish. It’s somber, sparks some thought and is tragic, just simply brought down by the bungled mess that lead us here.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Well, other than Daiji's siblings being poor advocates for freedom, I think this arc in general is ridiculous for how easily Akaishi convinced a significant majority that Gif is totally some lonely mistreated dude who just wants to be friends with humans. Instead of anybody asking for evidence or confirmation from Gif to support this, they immediately take his word for it! Daiji stands out for being a main character, but a lot of the characters here are too dumb to be reasoned with via normal means, when a basic value like freedom shouldn't be something you'd even need to advocate for in the modern day. The world of Revice is somehow like an entire society of gullible subservient Aguileras. The only good thing to come out of this contrived insanity is the Daiji Rage Quit meme.

I thought the public supports Kamen Riders by booing Daiji at ep. 39. Daiji's the one that does take Akaishi's words by face value, but other than Daiji's arc being actually controversial and to people, I wish that this gets more acknowledged by people in other, better-received arcs when a character feels villains are more rational, of which they can be praised or defended by people compared to idealistic nonsense. Though regarding people immediately taking villains' words at face value, that seems to be more commonly happen than just specifically dumb and gullible society, it seems to happen commonly among fanbase in many fictions that it makes the villainy downplayed and them being viewed as right but get shit on, though dunno if being fiction plays a part, though it can happen to historical real life far from present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deepsea

Also, as a person who often feels weak and that their life is out of their control Daiji is relatable on some level. It's hard to cope with and accept our internal flaws and demons. A lot of society shames us for having flaws and being hateful or resentful when those emotions are natural. It's easy to see why Daiji killed Kagerou, he wanted to feel like he'd overcome those emotions, that he had come to love his family, but no one actually addressed the source of the problems. I don't know what the Igarashi's could do to help Daiji, but it feels like no one, not even Daiji, has helped Daiji.

Honestly, though the show paints getting rid of their demons as refusal to face one's self and actually a wrong path, and while it's true, kinda felt that it's reasonable too that they dislike their demons around and want to get rid of them (also Ikki at the beginning, though at one point he does not acknowledge Vice's change), as how both Kagerou and Vail are uncaring psychos who tried to kill their hosts’ family, or performing other moments like ruining their family moment, and don’t show a shred of remorse for this, they're nothing but nuisance at best or actual dangerous threat to be around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER REVICE EPISODE 40 - “FAMILY OR THE WORLD… A BROTHERLY BATTLE OF SOULS!”

Mama Igarashi gets it. It’s easy to read Daiji’s recent actions as intolerable, unforgivable. But Daiji’s not really battling on behalf of an alien dictator in a pocket dimension, or a leather tie-wearing despot in a cavernous office. Daiji isn’t warring on behalf of his commitment to pessimism or nihilism, nor is he certain that deference to Giff is the one possible path to humanity’s salvation. Daiji’s fighting with his brother because they don’t see the world the same way, and love each other too much to let it slide. They’re too squabbling brothers, and nothing more serious than that.

(In fairness, Ikki has neglected to mention the actual gun that Daiji pulled on his brother as part of last episode’s cliffhanger. I do not think she would be as serene about this storyline if she knew all of the details!)

Yukimi returns as the usual voice of reason regarding the family meddlings, this time about how siblings can regularly fight and it's normal, or in this case it can be better that they're letting each other know what are their feelings. Though the flashbacks seem to portray it in the most lighthearted way they can, it's not touched upon regarding sibling fights that can go out of the hand (outside of Rider fighting). Her fighting with Genta, admittedly, was something that surprised me as Yukimi's the only one to fully appreciate Genta between the family, but of course, it was just an acting, and shows that the other family members aren't any more reasonable for putting down goofy antics from Genta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The thing with Ikki and Daiji is that they don’t rate problems the same way. Daiji values the big picture to a degree that misses out on nuance and individuality, while Ikki thinks small and lets that build big. Ikki would rather help his family than save the world, while Daiji would rather save the world, even if it lost him his family. They fundamentally view things differently, and that friction is the baseline of their lives. Daiji frustrates Ikki, and Ikki frustrates Daiji. That’s their whole dynamic.

I'm quite mixed regarding the Ikki and Daiji battle here, on one hand, I like it that, Daiji is established as unshakable in his extremist belief regarding Giff, and he still is not swayed easily here. Daiji should not be suddenly swayed easily only because Ikki had more resolve and is more prepared in facing a rogue family member. But on the other hand, I'm still disappointed about Ikki not giving full explanations yet. about how by letting Daiji talk, Daiji talked about how Giff is so overpowered and everyone had witnessed that. Like the Weekend against edited footage, Ikki should've countered with another power showing, about how Ultimate Revi/Vice did block Giff's beam (the very part Ikki knows they stand a chance against Giff). Instead he talked about the teamwork with his friends and family to overcome Giff. That still doesn't show to Daiji if they're successful or failed, so the proof is still not completely clear to Daiji. Even though I like that Ultimate Revi/Vice consistently clowns Holy Live in fight if he gets his shit together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

But the conflict isn’t about a differing viewpoint; lots of characters on this show have unique views on the world, and they aren’t dueling in parking lots to settle things. The thing that keeps pushing Daiji is that he still loves his brother, and needs Ikki to understand that Daiji’s right. The fight isn’t about the problem, or the difference – the fight is about the other guy admitting he’s wrong and you’re right. Everything else in the narrative fades into the background as the primacy of the emotional stakes becomes clear. Daiji’s fighting because he wants to be appreciated, and Ikki is fighting to show Daiji that this doesn’t have to mean anything more than a disagreement. There’re platitudes thrown about, and a debate on Freedom Vs Safety, but that’s not really what’s going on here. It’s just two brothers having a disagreement, but with more special effects.

I guess Hikaru now deserves some credit in this episode. Though actually I rather like him telling off Tasuke more than his stand off against Giffdemos. Here Tasuke extends his ruthless approach to those outside his fake family, to force Ikki and others completely dispose Daiji as Weekend's enemy (and Ikki's not even an official member!), using shoot first ask later method with little regard. But as Hikaru stated, this 'professional' and 'task-oriented' approach is actually just being a control freak and imposing his decisions on everyone else. He's practically pulling stuff similar to Ikki's 'busybody' antics, but in a directly destructive way. But too often that, this type of approach by someone is handwaved away due to how said person has seniority or holding higher position (Tasuke is Masumi's right-hand man), where appeal to authority is often in effect to view everything they say as right, or inherent fear of displeasing your superiors (of which those can be about position abuse if they do that).

Tasuke's the more significant Ushijima, and he's the only one to have a bit of backstory with his real family, who is said to be lost to Deadmans, so he's not someone who never felt having an actual family (like perhaps Hikaru), which I presumed before to be the cause of him refusing to understand the meddling of Igarashis, but he's someone who refuses to look at the past, only the future. While Hikaru standing up to Giffdemos is nice, now it's disappointing that Over Demons is now really an ordinary Rider, not showing special power that can stand up to Giffdemos for a bit or such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It’s one of the best episodes in this arc, for how it lets these massive conflicts – Weekend Vs Fenix, the armies of Giff against three kids – serve the overall themes of family. Daiji and Ikki aren’t two warriors on opposite sides of a philosophical struggle, they’re two brothers who can’t figure out how to stop annoying each other. Weekend Dad and Hikaru aren’t stern soldiers disagreeing about how best to withstand an enemy assault, they’re a dad trying to provide a better future for a son who has had too much asked of him. Even Akaishi is getting in on the act, weaponizing Daiji’s need for validation by becoming his new Work Dad. (Sorry, absent-from-this-episode Hiromi.) All of the fights and debates and explosions and transformations, they’re all in service of illustrating the humanity of the characters, and it’s a sign of this show’s inherent quality; quality that is so frequently obscured by opaque motivations and developments that lack build-up. Here, it’s the Ultimate version of this show: smart, character-driven conflicts that ask us to accept the people we love, even when – especially when – they make it hard for us.

Other than that, I kind of appreciate what they're doing with Akaishi here. Though previously he had been established as a well-intentioned extremist, the first one to try ensuring humanity's existence before Daiji (well he followed him after all), as well as not killing the Igarashis because of them being technically family to him (as Giff's descendant), they live up into said Akaishi's trait here, by being respectful and pitying against Tasuke, giving him his condolences about his lost family and putting his family photo on his chest. Of course, you can give someone respect while being evil, as Akaishi still killed Tasuke after all (attempted for Hikaru). And there's him showing more about how he sees the Igarashis as his family, specifically, the ones who reciprocated him back, like Daiji, by sharing his feelings with him (and puzzled at his show of empathy) and 'saving' Daiji away. This now makes more sense of why Akaishi doesn't finish off the Igarashis. I already thought this before, but this cements more that, power threat aside, Akaishi's relatively better than Orteca, other than his proposed noble intentions, though he'd kill those who are obstacles in his ways. But... turns out that while it's good he's not turning into a Rider, Akaishi still got full monster form instead of keeping his human form like his first fight with human Daiji.

Of which Akaishi 'comforting' Daiji was the one, of all scenes, parallels with Aguilera comforting Sakura. I guess often than beating up those on Giff's side, Aguilera should also try interacting with others better, starting with Sakura here (to be specific, talking to someone who's downed), as well as returning the favor to her. Actually she's still rather stiff and the hug feels rather forced, but it probably makes sense, considering who she is formerly (she still had some harshness to Tamaki before, but not abusive anymore). But it's not really seen on how she consoles Sakura, after allowing her to talk to her as much as she likes.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Androzani84

I think one person pointed out that the main issue with the Ikki/Daiji conflict is that the show never truly pits their ideals against each other. Instead, Daiji gives several perfectly good reasons for why he?s working with Giff (and the fandom suggested that he also has the perfectly shallow reason that as far as he knows, Ikki killed Akemi), but Ikki doesn?t offer any counter-arguments and basically treats his reason for changing sides as unresolved angst.

It is so weird to hear this description of the Ikki/Daiji conflict, because we as fans should already have a grounding for what each character is saying -- this is 100% the Kento/Touma debate from the end of Saber. Like, 1000%. Daiji is saying that the only hope lies in doing something morally reprehensible, but the "heroes" are selfishly standing in his way; while Ikki is saying that a) what everyone else is doing is noticeably working, and b) there's no point to winning if victory is a choice between two horrible outcomes. Like, this is just the end of Saber! Which is a different problem, sure, but I don't remember people being as down on the end of Saber as they are on the end of Revice?

Putting that aside, I'd also argue that Ikki treating Daiji's arguments as thin cover for unresolved angst is exactly the right move from Ikki. Daiji's arguments focus on defeating/destroying his brother to such a disturbing level that they're clearly the focal point of Daiji's fixation. Daiji has a problem with Ikki, and resolving that is way more important to Ikki than winning some philosophical argument. I feel like that's not a new part of the show?

Oh, and thanks for the fun skit!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

That said, kinda love the scene with Weekend dad dying before he gets to finish. It?s somber, sparks some thought and is tragic, just simply brought down by the bungled mess that lead us here.

I don't know if I thought it was brought down by anything? I didn't love the stuff leading up to it, but I really enjoyed that scene in the episode. I liked how nuanced and difficult to read Akaishi was, where you can't tell if he's having a genuine emotional reaction, or just formulating a new strategy. And Weekend Dad! He gets this heartfelt speech that clarifies how much he loved the fake family he put together, without ever directly saying that he loved the fake family he put together. Some of the best writing in this episode was in that scene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Yukimi returns as the usual voice of reason regarding the family meddlings, this time about how siblings can regularly fight and it's normal, or in this case it can be better that they're letting each other know what are their feelings. Though the flashbacks seem to portray it in the most lighthearted way they can, it's not touched upon regarding sibling fights that can go out of the hand (outside of Rider fighting). Her fighting with Genta, admittedly, was something that surprised me as Yukimi's the only one to fully appreciate Genta between the family, but of course, it was just an acting, and shows that the other family members aren't any more reasonable for putting down goofy antics from Genta.

It was great! I'm not surprised that we were only shown a lighthearted version of Ikki and Daiji's fighting -- Yukimi's the one telling the story, and the memory is bound to be a nicer one. But her and Genta putting on a little play to teach Ikki that it's okay when families fight? I love it!

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It is so weird to hear this description of the Ikki/Daiji conflict, because we as fans should already have a grounding for what each character is saying -- this is 100% the Kento/Touma debate from the end of Saber. Like, 1000%. Daiji is saying that the only hope lies in doing something morally reprehensible, but the "heroes" are selfishly standing in his way; while Ikki is saying that a) what everyone else is doing is noticeably working, and b) there's no point to winning if victory is a choice between two horrible outcomes. Like, this is just the end of Saber! Which is a different problem, sure, but I don't remember people being as down on the end of Saber as they are on the end of Revice?

I think this is an unfair comparison for Kento, who at least checked Kurayami's despair visions to see if he could save everybody, before succumbing to the lonely path of Calibur. Furthermore, his ultimate goal had not changed, as he and Touma were both fighting the same enemy. It's one book with two writers, envisioning the same conclusion but with two different journeys to reach it.

Ikki and Daiji are not writing the same book, barely even the same genre. Ikki opposes Gif to protect people. Daiji sides with Gif to protect cattle. And for what? Daiji does not have any convenient excuse of despair-inducing clairvoyance, so his claim that his actions are "justice" isn't at all plausible and only makes him look like a self-righteous coward who would bend the knee to Gif after a little loss streak.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I think this is an unfair comparison for Kento, who at least checked Kurayami's despair visions to see if he could save everybody, before succumbing to the lonely path of Calibur. Furthermore, his ultimate goal had not changed, as he and Touma were both fighting the same enemy. It's one book with two writers, envisioning the same conclusion but with two different journeys to reach it.

I'm not saying that Saber didn't do a better job of illustrating how Kento came to his conclusion than how Daiji came to his -- Saber better! Saber much better! -- but I am saying it's a little disingenuous for the fandom to say that the Daiji/Ikki conflict is somehow unintelligible, only a year after Saber pulled nearly the exact same shit. They're both stories about pessimism and despair driving people to become unrecognizable versions of themselves, while the people who love them come off as obstacles! Let's not pretend this is an apples-to-oranges comparison!

[Layton13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I don't know if I thought it was brought down by anything? I didn't love the stuff leading up to it, but I really enjoyed that scene in the episode. I liked how nuanced and difficult to read Akaishi was, where you can't tell if he's having a genuine emotional reaction, or just formulating a new strategy. And Weekend Dad! He gets this heartfelt speech that clarifies how much he loved the fake family he put together, without ever directly saying that he loved the fake family he put together. Some of the best writing in this episode was in that scene.

Fair enough, I simply draw a lot of my enjoyment in these shows from both the bigger picture and the small picture working together. If one falls short, a scene, no matter how good in isolation, loses a lot of its appeal for me. (We'll get to something where I can get a bit more in detail about this rather soon)

Here, Akaishi just lacks a lot of build-up, focus, and meat to his narrative bones to invoke anything beyond "Man, this was surprisingly good. Wish it was connected to something, though."

I adore when the macros scale of storytelling invokes the macros scale and vice versa. It's this fun mix that just gets me excited. If I didn't care about that, I could just watch an anthology. Obviously, that last part is a bit of a hyperbole.

But I can totally see why you have no problem with it, it really comes down to what I enjoy in these shows.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

Here, Akaishi just lacks a lot of build-up, focus, and meat to his narrative bones to invoke anything beyond "Man, this was surprisingly good. Wish it was connected to something, though."

Sure, but I think in this case it's connected enough to the overall theme of Family that I found plenty to like in it. Like, the discussion that Akaishi and Weekend Dad are having is as much about Hikaru and Weekend Dad specifically as it is about larger concepts like moving on from pain (or not) and letting your children be a way of obtaining the future you never could -- all stuff that's a huge part of this series, and crucial to the Daiji storyline.

I don't know! I find myself more generous in my appraisal of this show than it maybe deserves! Take my opinion with a grain of salt!

[Layton13]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Sure, but I think in this case it's connected enough to the overall theme of Family that I found plenty to like in it. Like, the discussion that Akaishi and Weekend Dad are having is as much about Hikaru and Weekend Dad specifically as it is about larger concepts like moving on from pain (or not) and letting your children be a way of obtaining the future you never could -- all stuff that's a huge part of this series, and crucial to the Daiji storyline.

I don't know! I find myself more generous in my appraisal of this show than it maybe deserves! Take my opinion with a grain of salt!

I always take others' opinions with a grain of salt since, well, they are subjective.

For me, I see the connections; I just don't see them as strong or, well, properly spun. The show failed to hook me on its themes of family, and to me, it utterly failed in its implementation, so that very strongly relates to why this moment is more of a spark in a sea of nothing for me.

I get why you like this moment and don't see issues with it. For me, everything connected to it just drags it down by association sadly, which honestly just makes it more frustrating

[Kamen Rider Die]

KAMEN RIDER REVICE EPISODE 41 - “THE FATHER’S TRUE MOTIVE, AND THE SON’S DETERMINATION!”



It’s an episode more about digging into the last episode and setting up the next episode, rather than feeling like a compelling story of its own. I just finished watching it, and most of the middle section is already sort of escaping me, like I borrowed a demon’s power and I’m left blissfully ignorant of what it cost me. Let’s see if anything comes back to me over the course of this post!

Like, a whole lot of this episode is spent delineating the various feuds and stakes of this late-series arc: Ikki vs Daiji, Vail vs Genta, Weekend vs Fenix, Hikaru vs Akaishi, and Hana vs Anyone Who Would Make Sakura Sad. Toss in Tamaki’s desire to be a Kamen Rider, Karizaki Sr’s deteriorating health, Hiromi’s new/old job as commander, and you’re going to find yourself in an episode that struggles to move any one element into a spotlight position. It’s a lot of stuff happening, but no room to sculpt all of that into a compelling or memorable episode. Certain series-wide themes are touched on, and character traits are exhibited, but it feels almost like a clip show. We’re talking about Kamen Rider Revice the TV show, instead of saying anything new or different about our cast of characters.

That said, it wasn’t like I hated this episode, because I still like that cast of characters a whole lot. Ikki talking to his mom and dad about the cost of being a Kamen Rider isn’t new information in any way, but it’s still a touching and well-acted scene. (Genta and Yukimi! Always! They make this whole show so much better!) It also ends up slightly altering the trajectory of Genta’s character, pushing him to confront Vail, and I’m cautiously optimistic about where that’s heading. There’s a way it’s all phrased – “I can’t afford to lose anyone in my family” – that makes me feel Genta’s version of settling things with Vail is more about reintegrating Vail into Genta as a way of honoring the life that Vail helped Genta gain, rather than Karizaki Sr’s whole thing of I Must Defeat My Original Sin. Not sure that’s where we’ll end up, but after an episode that also brings up Kagerou’s mistaken execution around Genta, I am hopeful.

Beyond that, I thought this episode was entertaining, but not really anything to love or hate. It’s another assault by a bunch of Giffterians and Giff Jrs and whatever, it’s another assault by Vail, it’s another evacuation of Weekend bases, it’s another etc etc etc. A lot of the same set pieces and action sequences. Competently done, but nothing that’s emotionally engaging. Hikaru gets a scene where he’s trying to process Weekend Dad’s sacrifice, but it’s Hikaru, and asking me to care about that kid’s emotional turmoil and shaken resolve is asking too much of just about any viewer. (Again: Mihara from Faiz. Do not spend precious minutes of an episode late in the series asking me to care about the youngest, dopiest Rider! It will never be time well-spent!) We’re setting up for a whole string of shocking developments and final battles, but none of ‘em are happening yet.

Still, yeah, had an okay time with this episode. I liked all of the little bits we got with the cast, even Sakura’s side of the Hikaru stuff. They’re all interesting characters, and they’ve found so many weird angles on their interactions. Not the best episode, but still a decent enough transitional installment of Revice.

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It is so weird to hear this description of the Ikki/Daiji conflict, because we as fans should already have a grounding for what each character is saying -- this is 100% the Kento/Touma debate from the end of Saber. Like, 1000%. Daiji is saying that the only hope lies in doing something morally reprehensible, but the "heroes" are selfishly standing in his way; while Ikki is saying that a) what everyone else is doing is noticeably working, and b) there's no point to winning if victory is a choice between two horrible outcomes. Like, this is just the end of Saber! Which is a different problem, sure, but I don't remember people being as down on the end of Saber as they are on the end of Revice?

Putting that aside, I'd also argue that Ikki treating Daiji's arguments as thin cover for unresolved angst is exactly the right move from Ikki. Daiji's arguments focus on defeating/destroying his brother to such a disturbing level that they're clearly the focal point of Daiji's fixation. Daiji has a problem with Ikki, and resolving that is way more important to Ikki than winning some philosophical argument. I feel like that's not a new part of the show?

This happens in a lot more than just Ikki/Daiji conflict here, that people also insist that the heroes are just selfish for being standing in the one actually thinking realistically and just making things worse to prevent them from "solving problems" - of which villains are usually viewed as that by the audience, especially if they have a point. And if they don't get that, they'd complain about the writing being suck and not making sense, as if they think it's wrong for the show to paint villains as in the wrong? Many seem to think in moral relativism, there's nothing such as righr or wrong only perspective, and ironically they also impose their view on others as the realistic and mature view - the only right view to process the world, want the show to cater to them for "both sides having a point" and complaining if the villain is clearly wrong....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I think this is an unfair comparison for Kento, who at least checked Kurayami's despair visions to see if he could save everybody, before succumbing to the lonely path of Calibur. Furthermore, his ultimate goal had not changed, as he and Touma were both fighting the same enemy. It's one book with two writers, envisioning the same conclusion but with two different journeys to reach it.

Ikki and Daiji are not writing the same book, barely even the same genre. Ikki opposes Gif to protect people. Daiji sides with Gif to protect cattle. And for what? Daiji does not have any convenient excuse of despair-inducing clairvoyance, so his claim that his actions are "justice" isn't at all plausible and only makes him look like a self-righteous coward who would bend the knee to Gif after a little loss streak.

Coming from above too, I felt that if the show insist that the villainous side (anti-villain ofc for wanting the best) is right and that they've made an effort, the heroes can get more shit for standing in their way, and that the conclusion of Touma proving him wrong can just come across as the show favoring the heroes biasedly to convince the audience (who usually think the heroes only get ahead due to plot armor). Also, I thought Daiji sides with Giff to protect people? But Daiji's only concerned about how they live, not taking into regard of actually giving fulfilling lives.