[Fish Sandwich]

(Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Zi-O - EP24)

I mentioned a bit back during the Fourze episodes that I appreciated in retrospect how they laid the groundwork for something that starts truly coming into focus here, which is how utterly lonely Sougo is. A lot of things in this episode hit pretty hard emotionally, and Junichirou spelling out for Tsukuyomi that her and Geiz are legitimately the only friends he's ever had works wonders to reframe a lot of what we know about Sougo, and put it all into a much clearer focus.

Because, here's the thing: remember that first episode? Remember what your first impression of Sougo was? How many of us looked at him in that premiere and wrote him off as some weirdo, vaguely creepy kid obsessing over a stupid nonsensical dream that sounds like a life goal a five year old would have? Because that first impression of Sougo is probably the exact same one he leaves on most people he meets in-universe, and most of them don't have any reason to stick around after that. Heck, most of us were probably only following the guy at first simply because he's a Kamen Rider, and that's also why Geiz, Tsukuyomi, and Woz all started hanging out with him originally, too.

I'm not really trying to suggest the show was working some secret master plan the whole time here, mind you. I guess if I have to point to make here, it's that I feel Zi-O did a great job taking some of those rougher aspects of early Sougo and building something much, much richer around them. This won't be the last time I say something like this, but I very much appreciate how this show was able to take such an outlandish concept for a protagonist and start making him feel like a genuine human being, with real emotional issues we can empathize with and be invested in, all without ever betraying the strange core of his character.

I'm probably gushing a bit too much here, but yeah, needless to say, I ended up really liking Sougo, if that wasn't clear yet, and as such I loved these episodes quite a bit too. Kikai was a very appealing character with a fun world built around him, and that all intersected with the main cast in a great way. Definitely hard not to be feeling some things when you get to the end of this episode where Sougo is so eager about everyone working together and being friends that he'll gladly team up with his enemies... and then everyone walks off, leaving him completely alone.

And like I mention in the old post, this episode also made me way more okay with Tsukuyomi's current role, which is pretty impressive. I mean, it's still happening entirely to serve Geiz's arc, make no mistake, but by emphasizing here how she's being driven by fear, it makes her hasty and irrational decision-making seem far more grounded and believable. I don't remember it ever coming off to me like she actually wants Sougo dead or anything, and that extra little bit of distinction made all the difference for me. If it's about conflict in her heart, rather than her brain, all of this makes way more sense.

[DreamSword]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

The idea that friendships can end, even if you don't want them to, it's literally not in his brain.

Personally I don't see it that way. He's very much aware them breaking apart is a possibility: It's one of the reasons it's a big source of conflict throughout both his life and Rento's', it's just that he chooses to keep faith in Geiz and Tsukuyomi's' judgment, just as he declared way back in the early episodes. It's clearly taking a toll on him, but he's keeping on despite that. He's a strong guy with strong convictions, for better or worse.

[Kamen Rider Die]

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Originally Posted by DreadBringer

I just realized, is your gripe with Tsukuyomi here, a similar one to your gripe on Yuuji's turn on Faiz's finale (Yuuji was outright villainous though)? For her here, wanting to grow out of Time Mom phase (no, this isn't something that I use here to compare with Yuuji), but instead is done on the worst way?

Pretty much, yeah. It's not as big a deal as Yuuji's stuff from the end of Faiz, though, because a) Tsukuyomi isn't nearly as central to the plot as Yuuji was, and b) it all feels incredibly temporary. Yuuji taking over Smart Brain was in just the final few episodes, so there was almost no chance it was going to get swept under the rug. Here, I'd be shocked if Team Zi-O weren't reunited by Episode 28.

It's bringing up a lot of the same frustrations, but for different reasons. With Faiz, I think we as viewers were supposed to be unsure of Yuuji's motivations, say what you will about his actions. With Zi-O, I definitely think the show feels like it's being transparent about Tsukuyomi's motives and goals. They just, uh, don't make a ton of sense? In the details?

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Originally Posted by Daikaijuman54

I love how Kikai's year is 2121, signifying he's the 150th anniversary of Kamen Rider, which is funny since he feels so much like a Showa Rider with a helping of other Ishinomori Heroes, like Kikaider, even the Driver sounds Showa!

Maybe for Rider's sesquicentennial, Toei Studios (a subsidiary of AmazonDisney) will decide to go full Showa with their tribute. Tiny denim jackets for everyone!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I guess if I have to point to make here, it's that I feel Zi-O did a great job taking some of those rougher aspects of early Sougo and building something much, much richer around them. This won't be the last time I say something like this, but I very much appreciate how this show was able to take such an outlandish concept for a protagonist and start making him feel like a genuine human being, with real emotional issues we can empathize with and be invested in, all without ever betraying the strange core of his character.

Yeah, this show has been great about working on its original flaws, and nowhere is that more apparent than how easy it is to invest in Sougo's journey. He was my fifth or sixth favorite character in the initial story (can't remember if I liked Uncle better than him, but probably), and now he's the bright spot in an occasionally-unpleasant stretch of storytelling. They did some smart work fleshing out his psychology, and got a little more nuanced with his worldview. If only they'd given Tsukuyomi the same benefit!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

Personally I don't see it that way. He's very much aware them breaking apart is a possibility: It's one of the reasons it's a big source of conflict throughout both his life and Rento's', it's just that he chooses to keep faith in Geiz and Tsukuyomi's' judgment, just as he declared way back in the early episodes. It's clearly taking a toll on him, but he's keeping on despite that. He's a strong guy with strong convictions, for better or worse.

Maybe! I still think of him as a kid who's willing to believe in something ridiculous so hard that it eventually comes true. He's never felt like the Time Orphans weren't his friends, and I don't think he envisions a future without them. (There was the point where they were going to leave in Episode 16, but that was Sougo at his most self-loathing, and I don't really think that's where his head is anymore.) They're fighting, but they're still friends, and he's just going to keep putting that out there in the universe until the Time Orphans pick up on it.

[GrandComplete]

The final episode of this special and It's clear there were trying to set up more to get more content from the mentor being potentially evil, the limit of being Kamen Rider, none of the big bads being defeated and more Riders on the horizon alot of fans are clammiring for Shinobi this year. While I'm not exactly saying Shinobi getting full 50 episode show I wouldn't mind a Rider Time Shinobi Season 2, or an 13 episode Amazon Prime mini series heck I'lll even take a V-Cinema. One thing I really like about this episode was the use of fire and ice to create light it because a) it means iur heroes have to work together, and two it ties back into Rentari problems cinsidering they didn't have enough money to pay the electric bills.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandComplete

The final episode of this special and It's clear there were trying to set up more to get more content from the mentor being potentially evil, the limit of being Kamen Rider, none of the big bads being defeated and more Riders on the horizon alot of fans are clammiring for Shinobi this year. While I'm not exactly saying Shinobi getting full 50 episode show I wouldn't mind a Rider Time Shinobi Season 2, or an 13 episode Amazon Prime mini series heck I'lll even take a V-Cinema. One thing I really like about this episode was the use of fire and ice to create light it because a) it means iur heroes have to work together, and two it ties back into Rentari problems cinsidering they didn't have enough money to pay the electric bills.

While I'd be onboard for more Shinobi content, I genuinely don't think the production team had any firm plans to continue this story. All the stuff at the end felt like a joke: Here's all the cool twists and creepy villains and new heroes you're not going to see on this season of Kamen Rider Shinobi, because it doesn't exist! But, yeah, I'd be down for any new Shinobi content that wasn't centered around everyone getting horny for Iroha. Anything outside of that genre would be welcome!

[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Pretty much, yeah. It's not as big a deal as Yuuji's stuff from the end of Faiz, though, because a) Tsukuyomi isn't nearly as central to the plot as Yuuji was, and b) it all feels incredibly temporary. Yuuji taking over Smart Brain was in just the final few episodes, so there was almost no chance it was going to get swept under the rug. Here, I'd be shocked if Team Zi-O weren't reunited by Episode 28.

It's bringing up a lot of the same frustrations, but for different reasons. With Faiz, I think we as viewers were supposed to be unsure of Yuuji's motivations, say what you will about his actions. With Zi-O, I definitely think the show feels like it's being transparent about Tsukuyomi's motives and goals. They just, uh, don't make a ton of sense? In the details?

I guess I gotta remind about how the scene in Heisei Generations when Ataru, who is a fan of Kamen Rider and is excited to meet them, also does the same to Tsukuyomi (which she mistakes as love confession), while also had Tsukuyomi (in her memory loss) not reacting to that name, it's a foreshadowing for something. Otherwise, yeah, was thinking and asking this about how it's an apparent heel turn/slippage for characters who are previously the other kindest and most heroic ones other than the ones with Kamen Rider sensibility (other than most MC, Keitaro for Faiz). Was half-right in my guess albeit you explained here the reason is different (or that both cases you explained shows about how it can be harder to pull this type of turn convincingly... I mean I have agreement myself too with White Woz not being seen as problem, even when Black Woz was before). H̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶W̶h̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶W̶o̶z̶'̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶Z̶i̶-̶O̶ ̶I̶I̶ ̶b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶?̶

Otherwise, sorry to bother again regarding this but I'd like to know what are your thoughts on my several previous replies below, and quite from older episodes (if there can be something to say):

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Otherwise, there can be negative consequences for KR, as a practically violent show (for fighting). It can be concerning when kids watch them is that they play into children imagination and fantasy, so children start to fantasize about being vigilantes (of which this practice should be discouraged). And for the lessons or such, the inherent difficulty in those shows is that all sorts of problems have to be resolved by violence and fighting (otherwise those shows won?t have any action elements), and there are helping people psychologically but it can be overshadowed (like it can involve MOTW).

↑ mainly going from the "Drawing strength from stories about empathy and kindness" and "stories of hope and sadness and empathy and loss and humor and fear" part back then.

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Actually this displays that Tsukuyomi had better judgment of the main duo than they themselves at each other (though it'd be Mom-ish for the part of how both of them value her opinion). Geiz hesitates between taking Mondo's power to defeat Another Quiz and letting him reunite with his father (I guess this also highlights Geiz's development himself that he grows out of his black and white mentality not only to Sougo but also to Another Riders), thus he asks her what'd Sougo do in his position of which he got her answer of Sougo prioritizing Mondo's feelings, thus he got a thoughtful expression for a moment. Though he covers up agreeing with her answer by telling her that they need to fight, this is then used as Geiz and Sougo's plan later with Geiz giving Mondo time to confront his father and prevent Ora from interfering by rushing straight at them to punch Zi-O instead, allowing Quiz to have his chance to escape.

Sougo asking Tsukuyomi which gets him the answer of blindly rushing at Mondo as someone too straightforward also lets him figure that out when Geiz punched him that it's their plan to solve the Mondos' problem, instead of the miscommunication of Sougo being confused why he attacked him, he's usually too straightforward to make that simple mistake. Then Sougo furthers buy them time by stalling White Woz while beating Another Quiz to draw out answers for Mondo's questions.

↑ ep. 20.

Quote:

Otherwise, while people can be complicated or having multiple sides, there can be still those who are more good, more evil, or more neutral than others, it's a mistake to only cherry-pick an action like a single moral act and use that as an argument to equalize everyone's moral spectrum of 'everyone has good and bad', usually used to talk down heroes in favor of the villains they justify. Someone should be looked at bigger picture to evaluate if they're doing more good or more bad (not good/bad outcome for here, like villainous organizations creating the birth of heroic Kamen Riders with its invention). For Sougo here, he had the capacity of evil but his goods far outweigh the bad more

↑ I didn't quote it before, this was the one I refer for:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I don't see that in the piece you quoted? I've seen enough Figuarts to know that Sougo's got a few more upgrades coming. Sorry if there was some confusion!

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I think we've just got two different reads on Tsukuyomi's thought process, which is totally fair. I see Tsukuyomi as someone who impetuously traveled to the past to try and be a positive influence on a future dictator, but was won over by his charming enthusiasm and guileless decency. She was someone who was scared that Sougo would gain power and use it maliciously, not just scared of him having power at all. The idea of her having any sort of distance from Sougo, and steering him more directly... yeah, not my take.

But I appreciate you sharing your view! Neat to get another person's take.

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here, since our takes on this character are different. But I think you're right that her character development is taking too many shortcuts. When all the focus is being given to Sougo, Geiz and the Wozes, it's easy to feel disconnected from Tsukuyomi.

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Originally Posted by Rei

The fact that he had a childhood robot toy as his only friend and later became an alternate future with his powers is kinda sad. You dreamt up your toy to become your friend?

Will Be The BFF.

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Originally Posted by gashatfreak

Kikai being a manifestation of Sougo wanting a friend is bittersweet, but what's with the human extinction plot? Did Sougo subconsciously want to burn society or something? I mean, if so then Ohma Zi-O suddenly makes a lot of sense.

I never made that connection before, but that does make a lot of sense for Sougo's motivation. Society must seem very unaccommodating to a man who wants to become a king. Even though he's a good guy who wouldn't wish harm on others, the dystopian content of his dream might give some insight in to some unconscious resentment for the world that opposes his dream.

[GrandComplete]

I wanna preface this by saying that I love this arc ot might be one of my favorites in ZI-O the parallel character dynamics between Black/White Woz with Sougo and Geiz, Satoshi Morota excellent use of camera angles and color grading (that sunset tho!!!!!).

Wheras Rentaro was a foil to Sougo, this time Mondo is one torwards Geiz especially with his stance on changing the past is a weak thing to do and how that clearly agitates Geiz up.

The only bad thing I can say about this episode was how haphazardly Geiz insert song FUTURE GUARDIAN was just thrown in there this episode and is just never used ever again. However i love how the song just stops when Ora stopped time such a neat detail.

Speaking of neat details I love the trivia night session we got I think it was just a nice character moment. And I love how we brought back that Sougo is bad at games from the Ex-Aid Arc back despite the fact that it was a history based one lol.

[Kamen Rider Die]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

H̶o̶w̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶W̶h̶i̶t̶e̶ ̶W̶o̶z̶'̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶Z̶i̶-̶O̶ ̶I̶I̶ ̶b̶e̶f̶o̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶o̶u̶g̶h̶?̶

He definitely got out of there pretty quick! Funny stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Otherwise, sorry to bother again regarding this but I'd like to know what are your thoughts on my several previous replies below, and quite from older episodes (if there can be something to say):

Nothing that springs to mind, unfortunately. I liked reading it, though!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrandComplete

Speaking of neat details I love the trivia night session we got I think it was just a nice character moment. And I love how we brought back that Sougo is bad at games from the Ex-Aid Arc back despite the fact that it was a history based one lol.

Ha ha, yeah! Sougo's not even great at history games! Maybe that's why the Time Jackers created Another Quiz? Because Sougo's so weak against games?

I shouldn't've underestimated them! They've got a solid plan!

[GrandComplete]

One thing I didn't mention last episode was White Woz was narrating which is shame that this didn't carry over ever again. I like his style it feels more... claustrophobic if that make sense with the white viid and digital numbers all around him.

Also cool to see movie forms in the show. I feel like starting with Build this happened more often it's cool to seen.

As for the episode itself I love how we so tightly focus on Geiz and shows his more subtle developments. Looking at Geiz in a surface level it easy the say he the same guy fron episode one but here he's deliberate even asking what would Sougo do. I also love hoe Sougo figured out on his own based off what he know's of Geiz.

And finally we have Mondo and his father it's complicated there no easy fix for this family. But the broken watch on his starts moving indicating it better taken care of. Mondo mom is still going to die and his father still going to still fail but he feels better and that great it's not a perfect victory but it a personal victory for him. Unfortunatly the only real issue with this episode is that Mondo still keep his memories despite this entire story being that he loses them once his powers are taken. So it does kill some of the tension. It feels a little tonally outta place with the inheirent tradegy of Mondo story.

Also we never got to see what the world in 2040 looked like, who the mosnter he fought were and since he never got a Rider Time special of his own will never know which is shame as Mondo is personal favorite Future Rider too boot.