[Locke]

Oh God Agito is another piece of Japanese media using religious iconography while not understanding what they actually mean...AGAIN? And to boot they get something like evolution wrong? Don't they teach that in schools in Japan?

[SPLIT LIP]

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I liked all three of the main protagonists, but I always view Hikawa as the real main character of the show.

That much we can agree on.

But even he became repetative and one-track, never really changing or growing.

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Shouchi's happy-go-lucky nature can get grating after awhile, but he remains a sympathetic character throughout.

But he doesn't.

You can't just say he is something without proof. Time and time again, people die, and Shouchi is completely unfazed. We later learn he is ENTIRELY aware of the deaths, and his powers, but either through stupidity or cowardice (the show offers neither as true) he never mentions it. He never seeks out answers, he never does anything with his amazing gift. He doesn't MENTION his amazing gift. He just plants his stupid tomatoes.

That, to me, is worse than the monsters. He ALWAYS lets people die before he gets into action, and since tehre's a new monster every week, it's hard to say if he actually saved anyone at all. The only time he ever felt emoton was when his fake-girlfriend died, or when he foudn out his sister killed ehrself.

So basically, he only cared when something happened to somethign he loved. What about the children or parents or sibligns or friends off all those killed? Agito never even PONDERS, never even ACKNOWLEDGES that someone has died. He is worse than heartless, he's borderline mindless. He's not a character, he's a prop.

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Gills works well as a supporting character, even if his constant bad luck with female guest stars got a little ridiculous by the end.

What exactly did he support?

Because he had nothing to do with the show. He ran into Agito and G3 once or twice, but he was off by himself, and when he finally joined up in the last, oh, five eps? Lost his powers.

He did nothing.

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Hikawa, though, is easily the most engaging of the three. He's a guy who wants to get to the truth of what's going on, even when everyone else is trying to get him to give up or just shut up and follow orders.

And he rarely, if ever, truely seeks out that truth.

Good men want. Great men obtain.

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It always impressed me how he never gave up on trying to stop the monsters, no matter how obviously outclassed he was.

That's fine.

But that's not a lot to go on. PLENTY of characters don't give up, but accomplish far, far more.

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He was a great character and Shouichi always worked well as his more relaxed counterpart.

Not really.

Than again if Souichi were anymore relaxed, his heart would stop.

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The show wasn't perfect -

And yet, you said it was a masterpiece.

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Originally Posted by Locke

Oh God Agito is another piece of Japanese media using religious iconography while not understanding what they actually mean...AGAIN? And to boot they get something like evolution wrong? Don't they teach that in schools in Japan?

E-yup.

Evolution is not something you can really even define. It is actions passed on through offspring. And individual cannot really evolve. That's why we say a man adapts, but mankind evolves.

Honestly, this just reminds me of my favourite episode of one of my favourite cartoons: Beast Wars. In one episode, possibly the most famous episode of the show, the character of Dinobot had been undergoing some pretty intense inner trumoil. He, and all other characters, existed in Earth's prehistory. They were in the past, which meant either everything they did changed the future, or everything they did was meant to happen anyway. This nearly drove him to suicide, as he "could not live if not the master of >his< own fate." The evolution comes in part when Megatron gets the idea of destroying a key tribe of the ancestors of the human race to halt or alter their evolutionary journey, as humans would someday become an advantage to their enemies. Dinobot, after a bloody battle to stop this, is defenseless, and Megatron holds a proto-human hostage. Dinobot then grabs a stcik to beat Megatron, but it's not really effective. He then embeds a rock into the stick, creating a hammer to damage Megatron just enough to turn the tide. The protohuman witnesses the hammer's crafting, and later uses it to crack open a coconut to eat, and afetr that, kill a snake that had killed one of his fellows earlier. As the proto-human holds the hammer in awe of it's power, he screams to the skies as evolution at it's purest has taken it's first step. And yet oddly enough, if it itself a roundabout story. Dinobot introduced the human to tools, but Dinobot was only on Earth in it's perhistory because of humanity's technological achievements leading them there in the future. It's one of the most beautifully thematic moments in a cartoon show I've seen.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Because the human brain has standards.

You're acting like there's one human brain we all share, and it's in your head.

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Because if they insist on calling those series "masterpieces" then they are inviting them to be judged by "masterpice" standards.

Fair enough. Though I'd argue that he just doesn't have the vocabulary (or maybe just the patience) to articulate why he thinks the series is a masterpiece.

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No.

But be realistic. Anyone can like anything they want, but calling Agito a Masterpiece is overkill. Especially when it's as flawed as it is. And ESPECIALLY when he confronts anyone who disagrees with "well, you're the ONLY ONE WHO EVER-."

"Anyone can like anything they want but calling Agito a Masterpiece is overkill."

So... apparently they can't like anything they want because you are the ultimate arbiter of quality, and you have deemed Kuuga unworthy.

Though yeah, citing a majority's opinion is an infuriating counterargument. We're in agreement. Especially when he came out the gate swinging.

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Thanks for proving my point!

Now you know why Superman doesn't do stuff like that anymore. It's absurd, and just goes to show the runaway fantasy trap I'm explaining. It's exactly the same as Kuuga destroying a planet.

And that lack of imagination and insistence on logic is why modern Superman comics, stunts aside, sell like shit and are mostly terrible. He's a character who thrives in illogic. Not so with a character like Batman, who thrives when grounded and well-reasoned.

My favorite recent Superman story is All-Star Superman. I think that's a fairly common opinion. That story features a Superman strong enough to move Earth out of it's orbit. You may not buy that Silver Age nonsense in the simple stories from the 50s & 60s, but that same nonsense works in the context of ASSM because the emotional logic is sound. Grant Morrison proved that you can have crazy, absurd things happen randomly so long as your character reacts in a way that's true to his psychology.

My point is: The same logical rules can't apply to all stories. The rules are entirely context dependent.

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It's called "too much." Why do I have the feeling if a dehydrated man showed up on your doorstep begging for water, you'd drown him in your bathtub, and when he protests, you'd act like HE was at fault for wanting water in the first place.

Interesting analogy.

I'm just arguing for an open mind. I'm not saying the way you prefer story is wrong -- just that it's far from the only way, as your tone implies.

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And now you see.

Again, to refer back to my suspension of disbelief arguement you decidedly ignored in favour of a joke, there's limits. It's the same reason Kamen Rider has cohesive stories, continuity in the series's, and structure at all. You can't ignore every single breach of logic simply because you have to ignore some to accept the concept. That's how stories fall apart and lose quality.

I'm utterly baffled this needs explaining.

I didn't address it because you just kind of said the words "suspension of disbelief" and said the way to achieve it is to be able to visualize an absurd concept. I think that's overly reductive and depends on everyone having the same level of imagination.

After this post, I kind of see that you're arguing that a strong internal logic is vital to fostering suspension of disbelief. I agree, in general, but I also believe that most people can sustain their suspension of disbelief even in the face of logic breaches (as long as they're rare) if most of the other logical areas are strong.

Where we disconnect most is when you seem to imply that there is a universal set of logical proofs that exist to provoke suspension of disbelief, and that they're the same for every person. That if you tick off enough boxes on this imaginary list, universal suspension of disbelief is automatically achieved for everyone. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, But that's far from true.

[Locke]

What Split is trying to convey, as to how I understand it and appreciate it myself, is that even the silliest shows in the world have logic, they are ground in their own version of reality and set of internal rules. It's up to the show to allow us to buy into noticeable zips, cardboard robots and pretty Japanese boys being better suited to fight monsters than actual trained officials.

But Kuuga's planet destroying kick defies the shows own continuity. Kuuga is a show, to be fair, with very strong world building. Although I hated the tone, Kuuga does feel very much like how a Rider war would perhaps play out if it happened fo'realz. So to suddenly turn around and 'HERP DERP DESTROY THE PLANET KICK' it was really, really, really DUMB. Even within the shows parameters of rubber monsters and rubber armour. Because it doesn't fit with anything else.

It'd be like watching Double Indemnity when suddenly Walter Matthau suddenly gained the power to lift buildings - and did.

[Aoi Kurenai]

I think what bugged me in regards to Kuuga was the lack of any major ramifications to a lot of what Godai did in suit and the Grongi in general. Somewhere in the first 10 episodes it's mentioned that the Grongi have managed to kill somewhere around 100 police officers and yet...life goes on as normal for people? Kuuga was clearly a show that wanted to be grounded in reality but it there were always little pieces here and there that made me wish certain episodes would touch more upon the fact that the hero has the ability to destroy the planet.


(this is why I'm glad Kiva never brought up that stupid attack Dark Kiva has that can blow up the earth)

For me it's a show where I can ignore those things because I enjoyed the characters and visual style enough that it didn't bother me, but it's definitely one of those times where you realize a show doesn't hold up well under certain standards.

[Locke]

Yeah those were my major problems for me too. For a show so fixated on the death toll, Godai was like the most disconnected Rider I've ever seen. It was almost offensive how undeveloped he was by the end. I find it funny that people stand in a line to gargle that shows dick despite the disgusting insults to the fandom, then a show like Wizard with a proactive hero who doesn't have a death toll to his name in the thousands gets collectively shat on.

[Matrixbeast]

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Originally Posted by Aoi Kurenai

(this is why I'm glad Kiva never brought up that stupid attack Dark Kiva has that can blow up the earth)

Wait, what?
Dark Kiva has an attack that can blow up the Earth?

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

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Originally Posted by Locke

What Split is trying to convey, as to how I understand it and appreciate it myself, is that even the silliest shows in the world have logic, they are ground in their own version of reality and set of internal rules. It's up to the show to allow us to buy into noticeable zips, cardboard robots and pretty Japanese boys being better suited to fight monsters than actual trained officials.

But Kuuga's planet destroying kick defies the shows own continuity. Kuuga is a show, to be fair, with very strong world building. Although I hated the tone, Kuuga does feel very much like how a Rider war would perhaps play out if it happened fo'realz. So to suddenly turn around and 'HERP DERP DESTROY THE PLANET KICK' it was really, really, really DUMB. Even within the shows parameters of rubber monsters and rubber armour. Because it doesn't fit with anything else.

It'd be like watching Double Indemnity when suddenly Walter Matthau suddenly gained the power to lift buildings - and did.

Wow, that does sound really annoying and like a huge breach of trust between the creators and the audience.

I still stand by my statements, though. That suspension of belief isn't as fragile as Split makes it seem... so long as the creators maintain a mostly consistent internal logic.

[Aoi Kurenai]

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Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

Wait, what?
Dark Kiva has an attack that can blow up the Earth?

The King's World End attack, otherwise known as Wake Up Three. It's mentioned on the TV Asahi profile page for Dark Kiva.

In general, there is...a lot of material concerning the specifics of the gear in that show that never actually made it to the screen. The Buron Booster add on the bike gets later has the ability to nullify any air resistance. Kiva's bike? Yeah, that was made by member of Kivat's race called Motobat the 16th. Also it contains the brain of a horse monster.

[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

You're acting like there's one human brain we all share, and it's in your head.

And you completley missed the point. Whatever.

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Fair enough. Though I'd argue that he just doesn't have the vocabulary (or maybe just the patience) to articulate why he thinks the series is a masterpiece.

Then he shouldn't be at all surprsied to have it challenged.

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Are you calling his opinion wrong?

Are you calling my opnion wrong?

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Are you ruling out all standards of a masterpiece that don't match your own?

As much as I'm sure you'd just love to disagree, quality can be judged objectively.

Now, wether someone likes something regardless of quality is something else entirely.

You seem awfully intent to try and cut out the legs of my arguement than face it head on, by pulling the INCREDIBLY weka and petty "opinion" card. (seemingly unaware it ALSO cuts the legs off of yours and his arguements)

Yes, everyone's opinions are different yet equal, do not insult me by assumign I don't. But when you are judging what is esoteric and intangible, you have nothing but "your" standards and your perception. I can not give you a diagram or model of a standard. It is not something I can find or touch.

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It's one thing to try to understand a person's opinion, but given your flippant tone, that's not what you're doing. You're backing him into a corner.

You seem unaware of the discussion at large.

"Flippant" is saying something is a masterpiece. He did not say he "thought" it was a masterpiece, but that it WAS, and I was wrong.

If you truely cared about opinions, you'd not be trying to scratch at my ankles. I NEVER said he was wrong. HE did. HE said I was wrong, and that I was alone in my wrong opinion. He said that, I've quoted him saying it.

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And that lack of imagination and insistence on logic is why modern Superman comics sell like shit and are mostly terrible.

Nope.

THAT is opinion.

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For the record, My favorite recent Superman story is All-Star Superman.

Me, too!

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I think that's a common opinion. That story features a Superman strong enough to move Earth out of it's orbit. You may not buy that silver age nonsense in the simple stories from the 60s, but that same nonsense works in the context of ASSM because the emotional logic is sound. Grant Morrison proved that you can have crazy things happen randomly so long as your character reacts in a way that's true to his psychology.

Now you see, this is actually a good position that does change my mind on a few things...

But ultimately still supports my arguement, as it happens. As you said, the emotional logic is sound. Basically, you will accept ASSM's leaps of logic because of it's presentation, and it's narrative significance. Kuuga's leaps of logic don't exist for those reasons. They exist to be flashy, overdone, and be "epic" without any proper grounding or emotional narrative weight. They're a cheap out in creating suspense and grand-scale imagery, rather than being the logical conclusion set by events in or outside the story.

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After this post, I kind of see that you're arguing that a strong internal logic is vital to fostering suspension of disbelief. But I also believe that suspension of disbelief can sustain some breaches in logic, so long as they're rare, if most of the other logical areas are strong and sound.

Essentially.

That breach in logic though, that's too much. You just cannot kick a planet and make it explode. There's nothing to be gained from that type of action other than a false idea of 'epicness' as the kids say.

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Where we disconnect most is when you seem to imply that there is a universal set of logical proofs that exist to provoke suspension of disbelief in every person. That if you tick off enough boxes on this imaginary list, that suspension of disbelief is automatically achieved for everyone. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, But that's far from true.

You are mis-interpreting me.

I'm not saying everyone's limits are the same, but everyone has limits. And as a species with culture and society, those limits are often close.

Obviously my stance is not alone, not that I care if it is, or else EVERY series would have this kind of over-the-top imagery.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

That suspension of belief isn't as fragile as Split makes it seem...

It's not that suspension of disbelief is fragile, it's that Kuuga's stupid kick was such a vicious blow to it, as Locke pointed out.

I mean ultimately your entire arguement here has been semantics.