[Fish Sandwich]

So I ended up reading this again after remembering it exists. Hecka Gaim finale spoilers in there if you haven't seen the show, by the way. Also some Black spoilers.

I'd be super curious to see what anyone who wants to check it out thinks. Mind blowing revelation? Total bulls***? Or maybe just an interesting perspective?

I disagree with the fundamental points being presented, but that post inadvertently hits on a lot of my big criticisms of Gaim in a way that's a bit more elegant that I usually am. Especially the bits about Kouta. Case in point:

Quote:

For all Kouta said about breaking the rule that demanded sacrifices, his status and power still demanded the death of someone.

It was certainly fun seeing those sentiments echoed back when I first found this shortly after Drive premiered. I've lightened back up on Gaim A LOT since then, but this was an interesting reminder of why it ended up rubbing me the wrong way back when it aired.

[DecadeW Climax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

So I ended up reading this again after remembering it exists. Hecka Gaim finale spoilers in there if you haven't seen the show, by the way. Also some Black spoilers.

I'd be super curious to see what anyone who wants to check it out thinks. Mind blowing revelation? Total bulls***? Or maybe just an interesting perspective?

I disagree with the fundamental points being presented, but that post inadvertently hits on a lot of my big criticisms of Gaim in a way that's a bit more elegant that I usually am. Especially the bits about Kouta. Case in point:



It was certainly fun seeing those sentiments echoed back when I first found this shortly after Drive premiered. I've lightened back up on Gaim A LOT since then, but this was an interesting reminder of why it ended up rubbing me the wrong way back when it aired.

I love Gaim but I hate that part of the ending. They went on and on about how great Kouta is and how much he wants to go against the system, fight fate and not have to sacrifice, yet he did the opposite. Should've been Kaito who won, at least he would've brought out his ideals instead of succumb to something against his character. Heck, I rather have Micchi win.

[LockonStratos]

Ah, that guy... I remember him.

I'm with Fish, I disagree with him on most basic points, but he still hit on what's wrong with Gaim's ending.

That, and giving a "force of nature" a face and agenda makes it impossible to not judge its actions. Sagara should of gotten his ass blown to smithereens, as Helheim, which he is, is the root cause of just about EVERY SINGLE BAD THING IN GAIM! Without Hellheim, Ryouma wouldn't have an instigator for going crazy, Micchi wouldn't of snapped like he did, Hase, Yuuya, Kaito and countless others would still be ALIVE...

Yet, he walks away all friendly, like he did nothing wrong. Fuck Sagara. And Kiwami, Kachidoki was perfect for Kouta's final form and Kiwami was nothing but empty promises and broken dreams.

Of course, I'm also biased, as I really liked Kaito. He was a character who... well, in the canon version, there's a good argument for him being poorly written, while in the fanon route... well, I've been threatening to do a major character analysis of at least the main 4, who are by themselves fascinating in how they compare and contrast, and he's easily the most interesting of the bunch.

[Powerman293]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockonStratos

Ah, that guy... I remember him.

I'm with Fish, I disagree with him on most basic points, but he still hit on what's wrong with Gaim's ending.

That, and giving a "force of nature" a face and agenda makes it impossible to not judge its actions. Sagara should of gotten his ass blown to smithereens, as Helheim, which he is, is the root cause of just about EVERY SINGLE BAD THING IN GAIM! Without Hellheim, Ryouma wouldn't have an instigator for going crazy, Micchi wouldn't of snapped like he did, Hase, Yuuya, Kaito and countless others would still be ALIVE...

Yet, he walks away all friendly, like he did nothing wrong. Fuck Sagara. And Kiwami, Kachidoki was perfect for Kouta's final form and Kiwami was nothing but empty promises and broken dreams.

Of course, I'm also biased, as I really liked Kaito. He was a character who... well, in the canon version, there's a good argument for him being poorly written, while in the fanon route... well, I've been threatening to do a major character analysis of at least the main 4, who are by themselves fascinating in how they compare and contrast, and he's easily the most interesting of the bunch.

Care to explain?

[LockonStratos]

It's mostly just me making extrapolations about the character from his actions. It's more fan theory than fanon. Mostly centered around him being a far more kind/loyal person than he pretends to be. That and his massive inferiority complex and self-esteem issues that I had pegged from a little bit before he got his Genesis driver.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DecadeW Climax

I love Gaim but I hate that part of the ending.

Huh. I hate that part of the ending so much it's a key part of why I kind of can't love Gaim. A stupid plot development in the last act is one thing but Kouta's actions (or lack thereof) make a lot of previously epic speeches and whatnot from him come off really hollow in retrospect, and Kouta speechifying is such a big part of the show it's hard for me to brush that off.

I'm like, 99% positive the show intends to portray Kouta's idealism in a positive light, and that climax doesn't completely contradict it (I even presented my own revised reading to that end in that thread I made after rewatching the show), but it still really confuses me why things played out the way they did. It's weirdly ambiguous in a way I really don't think it's meant to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockonStratos

Yet, he walks away all friendly, like he did nothing wrong. Fuck Sagara.

Seriously, screw that guy. More so than anything involving Kouta or Kaito, the way the show treats him is the big reason I'm so confused as to what it's trying to communicate at the end. Dude insists he's "just the hand on the ticking clock" and BOTH of the audience surrogates, Kouta and Mai, who have, for 46 episodes now, been giving lecture after lecture poking holes in the thinking of other characters (and even each other), just kind of stand there like this is a reasonable enough claim. But they don't actively acknowledge that he's right, either, so... what the heck? Is this one of those "draw your own conclusion" deals? Because if so my conclusion is that Sagara is a ****. Feel free to draw your own conclusion about what four letter cuss I just used.

[LockonStratos]

I think you're being too nice.

Mass-murdering sociopathic whack-job is far more on the money. It's funny, looking at it, it feels like Urobutchi tried to staple two endings together, one where Hellheim is just a mindless force of nature and Kouta's actions make way more sense and another where Helheim/Sagara is the final boss and Kouta and whoever is available team up to beat the ever living shit out of him.

Either one of those endings would be good, but trying to blend them... it doesn't blend.

[TF RyuShin]

Well, not saying that Gaim's ending to be entirely bad. For me, I totally enjoy the ending a lot! But, maybe because all of the negative points were shadowed by the previous epicness before the ending. However, the main point why I felt quite disappointed in Gaim, particularly in the climax battle was because of Kaito. Really, I mean he essentially got a huge development to get a bit softer through each arc of the series, especially because of Mai. But, the the show ended up making him became the final Big Bad there.

I know that the Urobuchi might plan Kaito to become the final villain. But, they kinda too forced him to actually become a villain in the last minute and it didn't feel quite nice. After all, this element actually made almost all of Kaito's development to become null at all. I also didn't expect Kaito to be dead and even Mitchy to be alive; I thought it would be reverse. As most of people think, I feel Kaito should deserve to win much better than Kota. At least, it would be nice to see Kaito grows up and changes into a much better person, but.... Well, the rest you know. Actually, Gaim gave a rather shocking climax battle to date and it sold Gaim even more. But, trust me, there are more people who hate Kaito to become the final Bad here.

Also, Sagara.... Well, he's a rather intriguing and interesting character compared to some villains that we got before or lately. Unlike most villains, Sagara is bad, yeah one of the bad that triggered the whole events, but he isn't that bad at all. Giving power ups to Kota but surely he isn't an ally to our hero. Basically, Sagara is a neutral character. You want to say he is a villain but basically what he said were logically right and true. You want to say he is an ally but he gave more trouble than helping. You can't never say Sagara is right or wrong and he just did what he must do, that's all. Basically, Sagara is Kyubey going Kamen Rider here and as that type of character, he is only there to kick start the whole story.

[Annuga]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF RyuShin

Well, not saying that Gaim's ending to be entirely bad. For me, I totally enjoy the ending a lot! But, maybe because all of the negative points were shadowed by the previous epicness before the ending. However, the main point why I felt quite disappointed in Gaim, particularly in the climax battle was because of Kaito. Really, I mean he essentially got a huge development to get a bit softer through each arc of the series, especially because of Mai. But, the the show ended up making him became the final Big Bad there.

I know that the Urobuchi might plan Kaito to become the final villain. But, they kinda too forced him to actually become a villain in the last minute and it didn't feel quite nice. After all, this element actually made almost all of Kaito's development to become null at all. I also didn't expect Kaito to be dead and even Mitchy to be alive; I thought it would be reverse. As most of people think, I feel Kaito should deserve to win much better than Kota. At least, it would be nice to see Kaito grows up and changes into a much better person, but.... Well, the rest you know. Actually, Gaim gave a rather shocking climax battle to date and it sold Gaim even more. But, trust me, there are more people who hate Kaito to become the final Bad here.

Also, Sagara.... Well, he's a rather intriguing and interesting character compared to some villains that we got before or lately. Unlike most villains, Sagara is bad, yeah one of the bad that triggered the whole events, but he isn't that bad at all. Giving power ups to Kota but surely he isn't an ally to our hero. Basically, Sagara is a neutral character. You want to say he is a villain but basically what he said were logically right and true. You want to say he is an ally but he gave more trouble than helping. You can't never say Sagara is right or wrong and he just did what he must do, that's all. Basically, Sagara is Kyubey going Kamen Rider here and as that type of character, he is only there to kick start the whole story.

'how much does Kaito really buy into his own Social Darwinist philosophy? He talks a good talk, but his actions tend to be suspiciously altruistic whenever things get serious. It doesn't help that he's similar to Kyoko Sakura, another Urobuchi-written character with a selfish philosophy that she doesn't actually seem to follow.
Is Kaito becoming a villainous Overlord simply because of his drive for more power with the Overlords gone or was it a move of despair and rage from Ryoma killing Mai and causing Kouta's death via Mitsuzane? Consider that he didn't do this until after he learns that Kouta too is dead, angering him so much he takes the chance to becoming an Overlord. The answer is that his intentions were indeed altruistic, that the world he wanted to make was one where the weak were never suppressed, above all else. Kouta himself notes that they both want the same thing, but the problem was Kaito went about it the way of the cynic that he was, amassing power and forcibly remaking the world to achieve such ends'
Tv Tropes
Possibly these reasons

[DecadeW Climax]

I know this is the questions thread, but I've been thinking about Gaim's ending from that link, and now I have mixed opinions. GAIM SPOILERS BEWARE! (duh.)

In order to understand Gaim's ending, you have to think about the main themes of Kamen Rider as a whole, or at least the show Gaim took a lot from, Ryuki. (remember that rant? No?) It's about fate and tragedy. Me trying to wrap my head around this, found nothing. Then, thinking about OOO and remembering Ranbu Escalation, remembered another theme, power. Fate, tragedy and power, they are SO important to Kamen Rider. I made a really convoluted web graph connecting various elements and characters from Gaim and Ryuki and found all of them connected to at least two of these. The way I see it, people with power can create tragedy, tragedy makes people feel hopeless, making them crave power, this is a cycle, making fate. Just think about it, why did Kanzaki start the Rider War? To save Yui, which was a tragedy to him. Darkwing, who was created from his desire to gain the power to save Yui, sends Ren's girlfriend into a coma, compelling him to seek out power to save her. Kaito lost his home to the strongest power in Zawame, Yggdrasil, making him also crave power to take down those who bestowed tragedy to him. What words did I repeat? Fate, tragedy and power. Kouta may have failed his character and at being a Kamen Rider, a rebel who fights fate and those who use their immense power to bring tragedy to others, but he's basically the three words in a nutshell. Take one line from Ranbu Escalation from Kaito, "I should've crushed you when you were still a green fruit." Why didn't Kaito take down Kouta during their duel in episode 3? Why didn't Zangetsu finish off Kouta in episode 4? Why did they let him grow strong through the lemon raiment? Take the battle in the first episode. Gaim and Baron fight while Zangetsu and Ryugen watch. They were FATED to fight. Remember when Urobutchi said that Hase's death was supposed to be very important to the story as a turning point, this is true especially for Kouta. Remember that his parents died when he was young? Tragedy spurred Kouta to crave the power to help others. Also, who gave Kouta his powerups? Helheim, through Sagara. Helheim creates tragedy and gives power, and thus it creates fate.

Despite this, Kouta is not the bad guy.

Kouta fights the Inves to protect humans, not the other way around. He is an Inves. Kaito is an Inves. Inves are basically the authority. A popular saying is, "With great power comes great responsibility." There is no way that Kouta could've beat Kaito with his power close to Zenith's (Kiwami) power and his army of Inves. Kouta becoming authority by becoming the Man of the Beginning was the only way to beat Kaito and save those close to him. Kaito would've abused his powers, Kouta didn't. He killed tyrant Kaito, not sacrifice his human friend Kaito. So what Kouta didn't completely stop Helheim? He made a sacrifice to abandon his friends and sister. That pained him so much in the episode where he became an Inves and had to fight Yuuya. Remember the start of the show when Kouta traded adult responsibilities for street dancing? He doesnt want responsibilities so of course he doesn't want authority. Kouta isn't a Kamen Rider, he's an Armored Rider. Why would Urobutchi dump the iconic Kamen Rider name for Armored Rider? He's obviously a fan of Kamen Rider and knows what it means to be one. None of the riders in Gaim were ever masked heroes searching for vengence and justice, but this doesn't make Kouta any less of a hero.

So since this is the questions thread, how would you rewrite Gaim?