[Tokumonkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

I'm gonna be way meaner to this one than I want, but my gut is telling me the story here doesn't quite click together in a way that's very satisfying. The whole twist of finding out what's *really* going on with the Dreamer and all, it's great for how it puts the events up to that point in a new light, but even though it changes the context of the plot in a way that makes things more interesting than they were before, I think it might have failed to accomplish changing the emotions of the plot in the same way?

I felt like the story lacked stakes. This is where the weakness of the dream premise is apparent: there was no threat to the real world at any point in the episode. The opening recap tells us "if the third door opens, the dreamer will be trapped in the nightmare forever," but we already learned in the previous two-parter that isn't the case: if Zeztz defeats the Nightmare after the dreamer is possessed, the dreamer is saved.

The stakes for this one boiled down to "a nervous flier might have to board a long flight." And she doesn't overcome her phobia! She just mentions her nightmare to her husband. We didn't even dig deeply enough into it to go from "I had a nightmare" to "hey, honey, I've had a life-long irrational fear of heights due to childhood trauma, and maybe we should discuss that." As someone who, as the result of a scary childhood fall, lived for years with an irrational fear of heights, this was weak sauce.

This bothers me because many other parts of this episode worked well. Our action sequences felt interesting and impactful. There was a whole motorcycle sequence in a Kamen Rider show! Some of the comedy beats actually landed, and that rarely works for me. Overall, except for all of the action taking place in dreams, this was a good episode.

That exception is a doozy. The scene in which Baku meets the bride in the real world underscored this: Baku's dreaming interaction with the bride translates, in the real world, as a particularly creepy parasocial relationship.

[Layton13]

Gotta agree with Fish here.

While I've been loving Zetzt so far, and this episode was still more entertaining than the snooze fest Gavv turned into, it didn't end up resonating with me much either.

The twist is great and recontextualizes everything nicely, besides the actual emotional core of the episode. Not helped, the dreamer doesn't even confront the problem they have in the end. She sidesteps it.

I feel that if there was a moment with Baku and her about facing those things that scare us and not letting them stand in the way of what we want, it could have really brought this together, but it just wasn't there. We get a quick resolution for the redhering instead, which, while nice, would have been better served for our dreamer.

Let's hope this was just a temporary stumble because this show has so much potential to really zero in on its themes, and it'd be really sad if it didn't.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

As a two-parter that's mainly been about communicating your thoughts and feelings, I felt these two episodes worked out pretty well for the most part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Miyuki not knowing how Baku saved her is kind of fitting for the agent theme though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokumonkey

I felt like the story lacked stakes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

I feel that if there was a moment with Baku and her about facing those things that scare us and not letting them stand in the way of what we want, it could have really brought this together, but it just wasn't there.

So, having had some time to think about this a little more, I think I've better narrowed down exactly what makes this story feel off to me. I like what DreamSword says about there being cohesion in how honesty in various forms makes everything work out in the end, but the way I see it, if that's the story they were going for, the failure is in how very little of it is really dramatized at all? Baku's arc is a perfect example. It's not as if he has to wrestle with the decision of how close to let Fujimi and Nasuka get or anything -- in the very same scene that becomes an issue, he's simply told what to do, and then does it, and I'm not sure how that actually gave him the confidence to be a better agent?

The problem that feels bigger to me -- which I want to note also hinges entirely on my own personal preconceptions of what kind of show Zeztz is trying to be -- is that I feel like Miyuki deciding not to get on a plane in the end, like Layton13 is saying, is 100% the wrong choice for a plot in this series. As a lesson in general, I think it's fine to say that sometimes it's okay not to force yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable, and it'd be a killer moral for a Kiramager episode, but for Zeztz?

The thing I hadn't locked in on yet when I made that first post is that the missed potential of the twist here is that it turns out Baku and Miyuki are both afraid of falling. Metaphorically, in Baku's case, but it turns out that both characters have this task they don't feel up to, and I would've liked the story to result in them both realizing they can soar? That's all I mean about there being a connection formed between them. Baku doesn't necessarily need to even meet Miyuki in real life, and I even agree it fits better for Seven's heroism to be mostly in the shadows, but what I wanted was for this adventure to shape both of them in a positive way that's satisfying to see as a viewer. I don't know exactly how you could've done this and still had an exciting climax with a crashing plane, but it feels like this story was crying out to establish ZEZTZ as a hero who exists to turn bad dreams that crush people into good dreams that empower them, and to have Baku realize he's capable of that, after mostly fumbling his way through episodes 2 and 3.

[DreamSword]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, it works like the Mission Memories from Faiz. The power goes to where it's needed. Notice that the torso streams and even the green arms also lose their color. Physicam Transform has grey streams as well, but of course Wing has a lot more grey, as the red power is used to create something that wasn't there before. If you look closely at both, you can even see the accent colors matching the Driver, with Transform having a little orange on the limbs and Wing having a little pink on the wings like Zero One Flying Falcon. Pretty cool, right?

Very cool! Thanks for pointing all of that out!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

So, having had some time to think about this a little more, I think I've better narrowed down exactly what makes this story feel off to me. I like what DreamSword says about there being cohesion in how honesty in various forms makes everything work out in the end, but the way I see it, if that's the story they were going for, the failure is in how very little of it is really dramatized at all? Baku's arc is a perfect example. It's not as if he has to wrestle with the decision of how close to let Fujimi and Nasuka get or anything -- in the very same scene that becomes an issue, he's simply told what to do, and then does it, and I'm not sure how that actually gave him the confidence to be a better agent?

I dunno if you're referring to my post specifically or not when it comes to the agent stuff, but I will say I didn't see this two-parter so much about his willingness or confidence as an agent(though it is a small part of it), but moreso the efficiency of which he's able to do so. By forming a team, he's able to save the day, unlike last time. And that came about via him taking Zero's' advice to let the Investigators in on the whole thing despite his initial hesitance.

Quote:

The problem that feels bigger to me -- which I want to note also hinges entirely on my own personal preconceptions of what kind of show Zeztz is trying to be -- is that I feel like Miyuki deciding not to get on a plane in the end, like Layton13 is saying, is 100% the wrong choice for a plot in this series. As a lesson in general, I think it's fine to say that sometimes it's okay not to force yourself into situations that make you uncomfortable, and it'd be a killer moral for a Kiramager episode, but for Zeztz?

...

but it feels like this story was crying out to establish ZEZTZ as a hero who exists to turn bad dreams that crush people into good dreams that empower them, and to have Baku realize he's capable of that, after mostly fumbling his way through episodes 2 and 3.

I can tell that talking about this show with you is gonna be an experience, because here's the thing: I agree with you, but yet at the same time I don't. Lemme do a quick sidetrack real quick.

I'm part of a group chat with some friends, and we've all been chatting about Zeztz as it airs. Back when episode 2 had just gotten done airing, I actually made the prediction that Baku was going to decide that it wasn't enough to just stop bad dreams, but turn them into good ones. And that he'd showcase that by making Detective Guy the one to stop the bomber in the end:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

The episode didn't go how I predicted it would. Heck, it didn't even go how I ideally would've wanted it to, but for what it was, I did still like how this three-parter concluded.

But that didn't happen. And to me, that in itself signaled that it wasn't the sort of story that Zeztz was going to be gunning for.

Sure, that could change as time goes on; We're still early in afterall. But personally I see more evidence towards the story not being about what we both initially thought. But again, it's only episode 5. Whatever the "big theme" of Zeztz is(if it'll even have one) might not make itself obvious until later on down the road.

To be clear, I'm not saying you're "wrong" or anything if this two-parter didn't work for you, I just felt it was interesting how we kinda lined up, just in a bit of an off way, if that makes sense.

[Fish Sandwich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamSword

But that didn't happen. And to me, that in itself signaled that it wasn't the sort of story that Zeztz was going to be gunning for.

No, it didn't happen that way, but the show was pretty clearly framing the entire way things went down as a failure on Baku's part, so I saw it as reinforcing what I took away from the premiere.

I figure the whole significance of Baku being this master lucid dreamer is part of the show's take on the usual Rider theme of freedom? That first episode left a very strong impression on me, and a big part of that was how much I loved stuff like Baku declaring he has nothing to fear inside his own dream, and the visual of him grabbing onto that lightbulb in defiance of a monster trying to drag him down into darkness. "I know my own mind better than anyone" definitely felt like a pretty clear statement of intent about what the broad concept of the show is going to be, considering it's literally the line that opens the door to him getting his belt. Baku's whole thing, as he's introduced, is that while his waking life is shaped by forces outside his power (the exaggerated bad luck being a broad metaphor for any number of hurdles people face), he asserts firm control of the one part of him nobody can chain down, which then shapes the way he becomes a superhero when villains come along trying to take even that away.

The shape of the overall kinds of conflicts the show would tackle seemed very well-defined from that, and I saw 2/3 as existing primarily to demonstrate, by showing rather than telling, how bad things can get when people aren't able to keep such a strong grasp on everything that goes on inside their hearts.

Mostly, I think I was just taken aback that this two-parter wasn't some major step forward in its own right, which is one of those series structure things that generally ends up making more sense to me once I have the whole picture. So yeah, for sure, it's entirely possible the themes of the show will end up coming together in a way neither of us can quite see yet, and I'm totally ready to accept whatever shape it ends up taking. In the case of this two-parter itself, though, I had a lot of trouble seeing enough meat on the story's bones to overcome those preconceptions. Very little in those first three episodes went the way I expected too, but I feel like I still "got" them in a way I didn't with these two, despite still enjoying them on a surface-level. (Which I should maybe be emphasizing more! I was absolutely not miserable or anything watching them, despite how it probably sounds by this point!)

[Layton13]

Easiest way to force both to face their hangups and still have the plain scene:

Force her to jump out of the plane into Baku’s arms.

She is forced to confront her fear of heights and power through it and he would have her life literally in his hands.

Feels like the most effective way to get that done and not waist much time. Maybe 15 secs of an encouraging monologue added on.

[Frontier]

Maybe it's less about curing people of what their subconscious fear/desires are but just protecting them from Nightmares so those don't end up negatively effecting them or the real world.

[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokumonkey

The stakes for this one boiled down to "a nervous flier might have to board a long flight." And she doesn't overcome her phobia! She just mentions her nightmare to her husband. We didn't even dig deeply enough into it to go from "I had a nightmare" to "hey, honey, I've had a life-long irrational fear of heights due to childhood trauma, and maybe we should discuss that." As someone who, as the result of a scary childhood fall, lived for years with an irrational fear of heights, this was weak sauce.

Intriguing to hear this take from someone with a similar experience to the dreamer, which I guess makes sense as this show will give various people something to relate to, depending on the Nightmare. Perhaps you'd have a suggestion then for how Miyuki might realistically overcome her phobia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Layton13

I feel that if there was a moment with Baku and her about facing those things that scare us and not letting them stand in the way of what we want, it could have really brought this together, but it just wasn't there. We get a quick resolution for the redhering instead, which, while nice, would have been better served for our dreamer.

What does Miyuki want though? We should start with that and think about the conflict from there. She wants to get married and make her husband happy. Her husband gets the innocent idea to honeymoon abroad, which scares her, but she believes she has to put a pin in her feelings to make him happy, which is not a healthy way to think. So, is the conflict her fear of heights, or actually her fear of being honest about her fear of heights? Seems like Miyuki does get exactly what she wants in the end, by simply gaining the courage to confess. This also opens the possibility for her to overcome her phobia in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frontier

Maybe it's less about curing people of what their subconscious fear/desires are but just protecting them from Nightmares so those don't end up negatively effecting them or the real world.

And by protecting them and the real world from Nightmares, also making them understand their subconscious fears/desires in a way that allows them to consciously improve their lives by making better decisions.

[Kiwami]

I’m having lots of fun with this show.

I like how things just – work out like that. Paranormal Affairs break into Baku’s house? Sure. They find the hidden CODE mission center? Yup. They move into it and support Baku from now on? Sounds good! The absolute hilarity of it all, and that the characters themselves are in on it, makes this so appealing to me. Can’t help but go along with the flow.

My main critique point for this case is that the end result, or rather the fear that sparked it all was kind of a weak reveal. But maybe that’s the point? Not everything that gives you nightmares must be a huge event like a wedding. And almost dying by falling does induce deep fears.